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Air Astana serious control problems, request ditching, land safely

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  • #16
    Yes, I saw that video time ago and I loved it.
    But what I would do in the plane is grab the control column from the control column itself (not the yoke) and use rudder for roll, at least in the beginning.
    Once you have the situation stable and under control you can maybe start practicing (I think I would stick to the rudder only option, but still). An idea could be to cross your hands on the yoke (left hand right horn right hand left horn).
    I didn't see Smarter Every Day try that trick.

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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    • #17
      I see one of his victims tried the 'cross your arms' with no better outcome. It also comes down to what to have been taught - if I steer right the plane goes right.

      Try this now - turn you mouse upside down (not flip it on its back) point the bit that would normally be towards the screen, towards you. Now minimize a window/press the start button etc. Bet you can't do it first time, bet it takes sooo much concentration the 2nd, 3rd....nth times. And this is just steering a mouse - you're not going to die, and you know what you did!!!

      I think these dudes did amazing (apart from the not noticing the problem on the ground), PS. is it possible that while on the ground, PF moved the controls while PNF reported 'check' for movement?

      Vaz

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
        Yes, I saw that video time ago and I loved it.
        But what I would do in the plane is grab the control column from the control column itself (not the yoke) and use rudder for roll, at least in the beginning.
        Once you have the situation stable and under control you can maybe start practicing (I think I would stick to the rudder only option, but still). An idea could be to cross your hands on the yoke (left hand right horn right hand left horn).
        I didn't see Smarter Every Day try that trick.
        Find some string. The F/A's probably keep some on hand to tie up rebellious passengers.

        Cut two pieces about five feet long. Tie a string to each side of the yoke. Loop them over something on the cockpit ceiling, then bring the other ends down in front of the same side of the yoke. Pull down on the strings to steer. Walk in the park.

        /Blue font.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Evan View Post
          Find some string. The F/A's probably keep some on hand to tie up rebellious passengers.

          Cut two pieces about five feet long. Tie a string to each side of the yoke. Loop them over something on the cockpit ceiling, then bring the other ends down in front of the same side of the yoke. Pull down on the strings to steer. Walk in the park.

          /Blue font.
          Not without an STC for the string... or someone's going to be in big trouble!
          Be alert! America needs more lerts.

          Eric Law

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          • #20
            Originally posted by vaztr View Post
            try this, yes the 'impact' on a bike is more immediate, but this dude knew the controls were 'backwards'

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzD...ature=youtu.be

            Vaz
            I experienced something very similar when I took flying lessons.

            I grew up riding homemade go-karts that had a pivoting front axle that you used your feet on to steer. That steering worked such that when you pushed with your left foot the kart went right, and vice-versa.

            Fast-forward about 30 years to flight training and learning to use the rudder and guess what? The rudders in aircraft work the opposite way. It took me quite a while to "unlearn" the foot-steering behavior I'd learned as a kid.
            Be alert! America needs more lerts.

            Eric Law

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by vaztr View Post
              Try this now - turn you mouse upside down (not flip it on its back) point the bit that would normally be towards the screen, towards you. Now minimize a window/press the start button etc. Bet you can't do it first time, bet it takes sooo much concentration the 2nd, 3rd....nth times. And this is just steering a mouse - you're not going to die, and you know what you did!!!
              I designed an industrial control system a while back that used touchscreens connected to PCs such that the touchscreen emulated a mouse.

              When the touchscreen would lose its calibration, the mouse action would be reversed... left was right, and up was down.

              We jokingly referred to that as "sobriety test mode".
              Be alert! America needs more lerts.

              Eric Law

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                After congratulating these crew members for this amazing feat, giving them medals, raising statues and giving them a high monetary bonus, let's fire them for not catching such an important basic and obvious thing in the pre-flight checks, especially after the plane had undergone major maintenance. The synoptic page that should be used during the control checks is very obvious. I may even understand someone missing a fully inverted system (where all the controls go right when you turn the wheel left), but the spoilers going up and the ailerons down on the same wing should have raised all kind of red flags even if peeked with the peripheral vision.

                [ATTACH=CONFIG]19865[/ATTACH]
                Synoptic Page (Photo: GPIAA, retrieved from The Aviation Herald)
                Some time ago- the conflict between small airplane and big airplane and control checks came up. I THINK it was In The Shade relaying that story of the misrigged Metroliner that he was scheduled to fly. As it happened, someone else was killed in the crash and In The Shade has one of those "Fate is the Hunter" moments.

                On small planes we generally do "Free AND correct" because 1) We can see the control surfaces and 2) These things have genuine cables and pullies that can (and have been) rigged backwards with some frequency.

                Airliners do not have much visual view of control surfaces...and they have much better mechanics. I see the TV screen showing that, but that strikes me as a fairly new thing...

                I am thinking that in the airliner world you crank, shove and kick and if it moves and not red lights go off, that's it...even if you are fresh out of the shop- the mechanic should have quintuple checked everything.

                /Parlour blabber.
                Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by elaw View Post
                  ***When the touchscreen would lose its calibration, the mouse action would be reversed***
                  May I put words in your mouth, and say that "sometimes, things malfunction"?
                  Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                  • #24
                    And certain things (*cough* PCs *cough*) are just about 100% likely to malfunction, given enough time.
                    Be alert! America needs more lerts.

                    Eric Law

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                      Some time ago- the conflict between small airplane and big airplane and control checks came up. I THINK it was In The Shade relaying that story of the misrigged Metroliner that he was scheduled to fly. As it happened, someone else was killed in the crash and In The Shade has one of those "Fate is the Hunter" moments.

                      On small planes we generally do "Free AND correct" because 1) We can see the control surfaces and 2) These things have genuine cables and pullies that can (and have been) rigged backwards with some frequency.

                      Airliners do not have much visual view of control surfaces...and they have much better mechanics. I see the TV screen showing that, but that strikes me as a fairly new thing...

                      I am thinking that in the airliner world you crank, shove and kick and if it moves and not red lights go off, that's it...even if you are fresh out of the shop- the mechanic should have quintuple checked everything.

                      /Parlour blabber.
                      Well no, they are supposed to be looking at the controls synoptic page while cranking (precisely because it is hard to see the actual control surfaces). Did you see the attached image? Doesn't give you shivers seeing things going up and down on the same wing at the same time?

                      --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                      --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                        Doesn't give you shivers seeing things going up and down on the same wing at the same time?
                        It sure did for me, but I bet it's about 1/100 the effect as on the guy who signed off on the aircraft's maintenance.

                        But more directly to your point... if looking at that display while checking the controls is part of some pre-takeoff procedure (and it seems like it would be), it's not just the maintenance folks who effed up.
                        Be alert! America needs more lerts.

                        Eric Law

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                          1. Did you see the attached image?
                          2. Doesn't give you shivers seeing things going up and down on the same wing at the same time?
                          1. Yes. My reaction was that that was an extremely new and perhaps limited thing that did not exist on metroliners, 707's, 737-200's, 727's, Early 747's, DC-9's, J-31, Saabs, Brasilias and MD-80s. I really didn't know such things existed (but then again, with ALL of the computer wizardry, why not?)

                          2. No, it does not give me shivers. When I look at #2 my mind thinks of what I just said above...I think most AIRLINE pilots on most of the trips I took in my lifetime were checking for the controls being FREE BUT NOT NECCESARILY CORRECT. (For most of those flights, a ton of other flights had already been done including extremely recent trips and the controls worked right...and you'd think the mechanics would triple check if they were monkeying with control systems.)

                          If there is a control position readout that is part of the checklist, then they SHOULD check AND DETECT such problems. Repeating- I took the control checks seriously on 172's and used the memory device: thumbs points UP towards the aileron that should point UP. Took it serious because mis-rigging has crashed a lot more light planes than big planes.

                          I would hope the airline guys take their TV check just as seriously and slowly and pause to not get dickleskick about what should be up and down (nor blindly do the motions like they have done thousands of times before- without really registering what they saw).

                          "Hope" is the critical word...when it worked right the other 1000 times AND YOU PROMPTLY and maybe a tiny bit mindlessly GO TO THE NEXT CHECKLIST ITEMS...Could be me, you, Bobby, AND EVAN EVEN, but NOT ATL nor ITS.
                          Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by elaw View Post
                            It sure did for me, but I bet it's about 1/100 the effect as on the guy who signed off on the aircraft's maintenance.
                            Maintenance looking from outside the aircraft might not have seen the onside spoilers go up with the ailerons if the FBW spoilers were somehow inhibited on the ground or at low (as in 0kts) airspeeds. (They also wouldn't be able to see the yoke movements to catch the misrrigging).
                            Perhaps one slice of the cheese right there.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                              All of the above said, I still don't understand how:

                              1- They are not all dead after crashing immediately after take-off, AND AT THE SAME TIME...
                              2- Given 1), that it took them so long to figure it out and control the plane. They were basically all over the sky unable to control bank, heading, airspeed and altitude (and Gs!!!!) for how long? Like 20 minutes?

                              As I mentioned before, I don't understand how 1 and 2 can be simultaneously true. They seem so incompatible.

                              However they did, big kudos to the crew, big kudos to ATC, and big kudos to the F=16 pilots.

                              (by the way, the airplane and persons were exposed to high Gs, let's see what "high Gs" mean, this airplane may be a write-off)

                              OK, I have so many thoughts about this. Whenever I design something that is connected, I make damn sure, there is only one way the connector goes in. How could the control system parts be ambiguous enough to allow improper connection?????? The engineers should be shot for that one. The airbus incident was different, they were fixing an electronic part on the control device itself, and in replacing wires mis-soldered them. That is different.

                              My Guesses:
                              1) They aren't dead because I don't think the system was fully reversed. It was just messed up on one side, and some of the surfaces were messed up, but not all of them. I suspect that meant that they had some limited control especially at lower deflections. I also imagine that the effect of the messed up controls would be amplified at higher speeds once they were higher up. It looks like the controls would have cancelled each other out to some degree at lower deflections. I suspect if they had hit a lot of turbulence or gusts, they would have been in big trouble.
                              2) Same as above, I doesn't look fully reversed so the outcome of movements would not have been trivial to figure out and I suspect behaved very differently under different conditions. They had to figure enough of it out. Given they were stalling and losing control several times, I suspect it wasn't easy for someone to wander to a window to figure out what was going on with the wing surfaces.

                              That reverse bike video is great. The mouse example is really good too. I grew up playing flight sims as my favourite computer games. What that resulted in is that when I want to look up, I move the mouse down. Interestingly, there are a lot of people like me out there, so every computer has a setting to reverse the vertical settings of mouse controls. I play all my games with reverse vertical settings -- and I have browser scrolling controls reversed as well on touch pads. If I try to switch it back it is extremely difficult for me to untrain it. The trick to reversed controls of course is not to make any sudden moves which is why you are screwed on a bike... and a plane?

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                              • #30
                                Two comments:

                                1. If faced with reversed ailerons, I would think that the single best hope is to recognize the situation (and that's easier said than done), and then don't use aileron inputs (which is also going to be a challenge). Instead, use the rudder (and don't tell Evan).

                                2. How about the fact that the artificial horizon indication and the turn coordinator indication already "go different directions". I actually found myself confusing them in my dabbling with instrument flight...just crazy blabber, but you could then stare at one instrument, tell yourself it's the OTHER instrument and then use traditional inputs (and hope your brain decouples where the gauge is and what it looks like)...
                                Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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