We also need to remember that Sully was a very highly qualified glider pilot and instructor which undoubtably added to the success of the Hudson River landing.
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Originally posted by brianw999 View PostWe also need to remember that Sully was a very highly qualified glider pilot and instructor which undoubtably added to the success of the Hudson River landing.
--- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
--- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---
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Originally posted by Gabriel View PostI argued this before, but again I think that the critical role that Sully played was the brilliant decision making (and call brace for impact). Once you are committed to ditching, the only thing you need to do is keep gliding with enough excess speed to be able to flare, bleed the excess speed, and "land" on water, and that doesn't require a lot of skills or specific training (and Sully was good but did not excel in this regard). What else are you going to do? Nose it into the water? Bank a wing into the water? Try to climb and stall?
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I don't know what Sully was thinking of course, but I think that slowing down to stay aloft a few more seconds was never in his mind. Anyway, why he did go below VLS, he kept enough speed to 1) not stall and 2) flare and arrest the vertical speed and bleed excess speed. One problem also was that he flared too high and when the excess speed disappeared, he could not keep the plane "floating" along the river while slowly descending. If I remember correctly (but don't quote me on this), during the flare he actually achieved a sink rate that was lower than the one at touchdown.
In any event, again, he did keep enough sped (even if below VLS) to flare, he did not touch down with 2500 fpm or I don't know how much that he had in the glide, and he touched down with a good attitude, absolute minimum forward speed (which is also very important because that's how much energy you are carrying and the level of destruction in an accident depends on that and on how quickly it dissipates) and yes with a sink rate that it was just a bit too much, but would have counted as a normal landing if he had wheels and tarmac below. If you ask me I will say again that he did it well enough. Could it have been better? The answer to that is always yes regardless of how good it was.
What I wanted to point out is that, after committing to ditch in the river, every pilot (ok make it most) would have done something very similar to what Sully did: glide, flare and touch down as slowly as possible (in both axis). And that doesn't require any special skills (except maybe a psychological skill to not freak out) that is not required to hand-fly the plane in normal circumstances. So that part of the story is not what tells Sully apart from other pilots and puts him in a special category (call it hero, hotshot, ace or whatever). I cannot say that most pilots would not have kept pushing for La Guardia. ANd that's what tells Sully apart.
IMHO.
--- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
--- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---
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Originally posted by Gabriel View PostIn any event, I always highlight this, the question is not if there is any field within reach, but if there is any field that YOU KNOW is within reach. Deviating from a 2nd best option (other than a field) to aim for a field that you THINK MAYBE you can reach only to later find yourself unable to reach the field OR the 2nd best option is a typical killer in these situations. The greatness of Sully's decision making is that, with several fields around that MAYBE he could reach (he just didn't know), he made the decision that he was going to total his plane and put it in the longest and widest smooth surface that HE KNEW he could reach. This is a VERY difficult decision for a pilot, it's hard to admit that you will end up in an off-airport crash and concentrate on finding the best way to crash rather than still trying to reach an airport (and risk a worse crash). Even if the simulator tests showed that after the 35, 55 or whatever number of seconds one airport was still within reach, that is of zero value to analyze the pilot's actions. Hindsight of simulator test showing that "you could have made it to this airport" can only be replied with "well, why didn't you tell me that back then?".
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Originally posted by Gabriel View PostI don't know what Sully was thinking of course, but I think that slowing down to stay aloft a few more seconds was never in his mind.
Anyway, why he did go below VLS, he kept enough speed to 1) not stall and 2) flare and arrest the vertical speed and bleed excess speed.
What "tells Sully apart" is that he achieved a survivable landing where other pilots may have ended up in the approach lights to LGA or a housing project or in a cartwheel across the Hudson. Again, I agree with you on that.
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Originally posted by 3WE View PostSome historical context from an aviation forum.
https://forums.jetphotos.com/showthr...ighlight=SullyThe German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.
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Originally posted by Evan View PostNot 'slowing down to stay aloft'; preserving pitch to stay aloft—which, in the absence of power, has the side effect of slowing down—while focused on where to land more than airspeed. A subliminal act of self-preservation perhaps. My point is that his goal at that point might have been to get an engine back rather than ditch. Glider pilots do not have this goal to contend with.
[...]
What "tells Sully apart" is that he achieved a survivable landing where other pilots may have ended up in the approach lights to LGA or a housing project or in a cartwheel across the Hudson. Again, I agree with you on that.The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.
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Originally posted by LH-B744 View PostLet's assume that he only 'fluffed' and he did not really try to tell us that we should pull the yoke to stay aloft.. As far as I can remember, on June 1st 2009 one pilot on board an Airbus A330-200 tried something like that, and he was not really successful.. So thanks for your entry #21 . Avoiding misunderstandings in the cockpit is crucial, imho.
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Again, No.
But you somehow tried to .. I really tried to avoid this impression, but you seem to insist.. you somehow tried to correct what Gabriel said just a few entries before. Don't say you didn't.
Gabriel said something like 'Chesley Sullenberger III. slowed down his A320 to stay aloft.' We should not forget about whom we're talkin here. And if you give me a minute, I'm able to find what Gabriel said exactly..
Probably that's one of my mistakes, I always try to understand what one of my friends say by inserting my understanding of it. So if Gabriel did not mean 'pull the yoke', what did he mean.
I should ask himself. But first of all, let me find his entry.. one second.The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.
Comment
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Originally posted by Gabriel View PostI don't know what Sully was thinking of course, but I think that slowing down to stay aloft a few more seconds was never in his mind. Anyway, why he did go below VLS, he kept enough speed to 1) not stall and 2) flare and arrest the vertical speed and bleed excess speed. One problem also was that he flared too high and when the excess speed disappeared, he could not keep the plane "floating" along the river while slowly descending. If I remember correctly (but don't quote me on this), during the flare he actually achieved a sink rate that was lower than the one at touchdown.
In any event, again, he did keep enough sped (even if below VLS) to flare, he did not touch down with 2500 fpm or I don't know how much that he had in the glide, and he touched down with a good attitude, absolute minimum forward speed (which is also very important because that's how much energy you are carrying and the level of destruction in an accident depends on that and on how quickly it dissipates) and yes with a sink rate that it was just a bit too much, but would have counted as a normal landing if he had wheels and tarmac below. If you ask me I will say again that he did it well enough. Could it have been better? The answer to that is always yes regardless of how good it was.
What I wanted to point out is that, after committing to ditch in the river, every pilot (ok make it most) would have done something very similar to what Sully did: glide, flare and touch down as slowly as possible (in both axis). And that doesn't require any special skills (except maybe a psychological skill to not freak out) that is not required to hand-fly the plane in normal circumstances. So that part of the story is not what tells Sully apart from other pilots and puts him in a special category (call it hero, hotshot, ace or whatever). I cannot say that most pilots would not have kept pushing for La Guardia. ANd that's what tells Sully apart.
IMHO.
he flared too high
I don't know what Sully was thinking of course, but I think that slowing down to stay aloft a few more seconds was never in his mind.
I thought you meant, 'pulling the yoke' by 'slowing down'. And at the end of the day, you said, we must avoid to loose speed.
So finally, there is not really a discussion between you, Evan and me. Evan only tried to be precise, which is a good thing. He tried to write his entry without all to many 'no' in it, if I'm able to say in other words, what Evan said:
'Yes. Slowing down (e.g. by pulling the yoke) is a thing which we must avoid. Stable pitch trim, with a rather small AoA is important.'
My words. Almost.The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.
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As we all know since 3WE published the link to the 'ancient' topic 'Sully, still with an 'e'', I know 'Sully' the movie from the big screen (movie theater).
I don't quite remember if in the 'ancient' topic, I said enough about men who thought that they are better than Chesley Sullenberger III.
And when they left the professional A320 training simulator, here we don't talk about fsx, all of them (!) had to admit, Yes. Teterboro would have been the catastrophy, a touchdown not on the rwy, but next to it, and call it only inches. Sully was right.
Again, my golden star with a diamond, not only for his decision, but also for his ability to 1. find and 2. enforce this decision
within seconds.The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.
Comment
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Originally posted by Gabriel View PostI don't know what Sully was thinking of course, but I think that slowing down to stay aloft a few more seconds was never in his mind. Anyway, why he did go below VLS, he kept enough speed to 1) not stall and 2) flare and arrest the vertical speed and bleed excess speed. One problem also was that he flared too high and when the excess speed disappeared, he could not keep the plane "floating" along the river while slowly descending. If I remember correctly (but don't quote me on this), during the flare he actually achieved a sink rate that was lower than the one at touchdown.
This is what makes me think Sully was still hoping to get relight on an engine and had sacrificed some airspeed in exchange for just a bit more time, either willfully or subconciously. As I said, it seems like a natural human instinct.
A glider pilot, on the other hand, could just maintain a steady glide path down to the flare, such as what you would get by staying at green dot.
What I'm saying is that the speed issue might not have been due to inattention or error, but was instead a calculated trade-off.
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