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BREAKING: Boeing 767 cargo jet operated by Atlas Air has crashed in Texas

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  • 3WE
    replied
    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post

    It is possible. Let's see what is NTSB's analysis on this when the final report comes out
    The horse is fairly dead and the more I think about it it is not THOUGHT of stalling VERSUS a FEELING of nose up- they COMBINE TOGETHER...

    Leave a comment:


  • Evan
    replied
    Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
    You can mount the G/A alarm right next to the TOPOMS, or whatever that thingamajigy you want to install is called.
    Sure, I guess wherever you would 'mount' a few lines of software code because that is what this amounts to.

    Something I think that's getting lost here: this would be merely for awareness, to let the crew know the mode has been activated, mostly as a confirmation of their intention but also as an alert in rare situations when the mode is accidentally activated (It happens).

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  • BoeingBobby
    replied
    You can mount the G/A alarm right next to the TOPOMS, or whatever that thingamajigy you want to install is called.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gabriel
    replied
    Originally posted by 3WE View Post
    I get it, the time sequence does not support my idea that he thought he was stalling.

    Or does it...He might have THOUGHT he was stalling several some blah blah seconds EARLIER and was just now (AFTER some seconds) TELLING the captain.

    I dunno- I may stick with my theory until we croak and can ask him what he was thinking.
    It is possible. Nobody will know for certain what he was thinking when. I think the sequence of events is more consistent with that he first tried to compensate for what he perceived as an excessive pitch up and seconds later he though of the stall. But I can't prove it. Let's see what is NTSB's analysis on this when the final report comes out in the next few days (and yet, they will not be able to prove either what the FO thought when).

    I can also see him dozing off, and dreaming something and making control inputs consistent with his dream (another question for the hereafter).

    I missed the part of the report where he was fatigued, though.
    Because there is no such part, we don't have the complete final report but so far nobody is talking of fatigue, except in this NTSB finding (which is rather a non-finding):

    2. There was insufficient information to determine whether the flight crewmembers were fatigued at the time of the accident, and no available evidence suggested impairment due to any medical condition, alcohol, or other impairing drugs.

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  • Gabriel
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    Because of lines like this:
    I said why choose one, we should go for both.
    That part was stressing that even with the TOGA alarm we still better certain plots or filter them out, because they will find ways other than TOGA to screw it up, and since putting alarms everywhere would not work.

    And even with the TOGA alarm, I don't trust certain pilots to correctly react to it. Remember how certain pilots from certain European airline reacted to a stall alarm that was shouting "honk honk Stall Stall" in plain English while flying over certain ocean after departing from certain city of certain Portuguese-speaking South American country?

    Again, no saying no to the TOGA alarm, just staying that can help but it's not enough, and the "pilot improvement and filtering" part can also help but is not enough since no filter filters 100%. So go for both.

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  • 3WE
    replied
    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post

    He did...By when the FO shouted "we are stalling" (the first time) he had already been pushing down several seconds, blah blah for some seconds blah blah blah.
    I get it, the time sequence does not support my idea that he thought he was stalling.

    Or does it...He might have THOUGHT he was stalling several some blah blah seconds EARLIER and was just now (AFTER some seconds) TELLING the captain.

    I dunno- I may stick with my theory until we croak and can ask him what he was thinking.

    I can also see him dozing off, and dreaming something and making control inputs consistent with his dream (another question for the hereafter).

    I missed the part of the report where he was fatigued, though...

    PS, I don't mind Evanie's ideas for a go-around annunciator (or all sorts of other annunciations), as long as they are divided into "basic aural backup/confirmation" versus "warning, this is big $shit".

    I also generally understand what you say, unlike Evan...you do sometimes get into gray areas and areas where there is subtle conflict and tension...cool world, that is.

    Leave a comment:


  • Evan
    replied
    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post





    Instead of reading between lines and trying to guess what I wanted to say, why don't you focus on the lines and read what I did say?
    Because of lines like this:


    Originally posted by Gabriel
    unless you start putting alarms associated with every single flight mode change, AT mode change, FMS input, etc... and when you start having alarms sounding al the time and for everything they stop calling ones attention so they stop working as alarms, rather as background sounds.
    Is that what I did say?

    I acknowledge that that you sort of concur on the go-around alert.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gabriel
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post

    There is a profound difference between any FMS mode change and a go-around, as you know. This is a major alteration of the vertical flight path, the energy and the game plan in proximity to the ground. I would be on the conservative side about adding aural warnings and alerts in high workload phases, but this one seems justified. Not only would it help prevent accidents such as this one, it would help prevented accidents caused by a failure to activate the go-around mode.
    But I side with Evan that extra layers of safety would not an overkill because we know that not all pilots are as competent as they should and even a very competent pilot in his worst day can use some help.
    I am not against an alarm.
    Instead of reading between lines and trying to guess what I wanted to say, why don't you focus on the lines and read what I did say?

    Leave a comment:


  • 3WE
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    CRM requires this. Until a pilot declares that he is the pilot flying, he is not the pilot flying.
    Awesome absolute statement. I don't think the control systems of the airplane give a damn what the pilots declare and either pilot can do all sorts of things (albeit not with full independence).

    Leave a comment:


  • Gabriel
    replied
    Originally posted by 3WE View Post

    Valid counterarguments noted.

    But I THOUGHT (dangerous ground here) he uttered "We're stalling" (YouTube transcript.)

    [Some area for further discussion]
    He did. My guess is that the super-high perceived pitch coupled with the sensation of falling (induced by himself pushing down) made him think that h was stalling.

    The somatogravic scenario would be:
    - Airplane pitches up a bit (giving the angular sensation) and accelerates a lot (pushing you against the back of the seat as if the plane was tilted nose up) and you perceive a high pitch.
    - You push down on the yoke, possibly not realizing that you are pushing way too much, which induces the low Gs which in turn induces a sensation of falling.
    - However, while feel the falling sensation and your nose is actually pointing down now, you still feel that you are tilted up because the longitudinal acceleration is still pushing you against the back of your seat.
    - "I am aiming too high and while I am pushing down we are still aiming too high and I feel the falling sensation: This is a stall and I am not pushing down hard enough, let's push harder"

    The FO didn't call "stall" right away. By when the FO shouted "we are stalling" (the first time) he had already been pushing down several seconds, they had been well below 1G and even in negative Gs for some seconds, the pitch was already 25 degrees nose down, and the perceived pith was just apparent pitch was just descending from too high nose-up and just monetarily reaching zero before increasing again.

    So, in short, what I believe happened is that he first thought that the plane had a nose-high upset and seconds later though that this nose high condition developed into a stall.
    If I am correct on that, that is incompatible with the initiation of the go-around itself being interpreted as an accelerated stall.

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  • Evan
    replied
    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
    What? Somene asked if there was an indication that go around had activated. Someone answered.


    Yes, I suppose. I don't know if there is any aural alarm associated with that.

    Again, someone asked for an indication, I said there is an indication. I am not against an alarm. An alarm is not an indication and I was not answering about an alarm.
    But we need the pilots to use the PFD because things can go wrong in ways that don't involve the GA alarm or any alarm, unless you start putting alarms associated with every single flight mode change, AT mode change, FMS input, etc... and when you start having alarms sounding al the time and for everything they stop calling ones attention so they stop working as alarms, rather as background sounds.
    There is a profound difference between any FMS mode change and a go-around, as you know. This is a major alteration of the vertical flight path, the energy and the game plan in proximity to the ground. I would be on the conservative side about adding aural warnings and alerts in high workload phases, but this one seems justified. Not only would it help prevent accidents such as this one, it would help prevent accidents caused by a failure to activate the go-around mode.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gabriel
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    Why do you guys persist in pointing out the obvious.
    What? Somene asked if there was an indication that go around had activated. Someone answered.

    The plots you posted show a moment of 'go-around annunciation'. Is that just referring to the silent FMA indication or is there some aural alert that I'm not aware of?
    Yes, I suppose. I don't know if there is any aural alarm associated with that.

    Again, someone asked for an indication, I said there is an indication. I am not against an alarm. An alarm is not an indication and I was not answering about an alarm.
    But we need the pilots to use the PFD because things can go wrong in ways that don't involve the GA alarm or any alarm, unless you start putting alarms associated with every single flight mode change, AT mode change, FMS input, etc... and when you start having alarms sounding al the time and for everything they stop calling ones attention so they stop working as alarms, rather as background sounds.

    Leave a comment:


  • 3WE
    replied
    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
    I don't agree.
    Valid counterarguments noted.

    But I THOUGHT (dangerous ground here) he uttered "We're stalling" (YouTube transcript.)

    [Some area for further discussion]

    Leave a comment:


  • 3WE
    replied
    Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
    And so it continues.....
    It does.

    I hope you are entertained.

    While I will never know, I still think it's valid to wonder how someone can get licenses and pass check rides and interviews and then dive a perfectly good plane into the ground...

    Sure, there's no good reason, but the bad reason seems to be a continuing question.

    Leave a comment:


  • Evan
    replied
    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
    But, as I mentioned before, 2 words by the captain would most likely saved the day. 2 words that he should have said, it was SOP and his duty to say, and it was obvious that he should have said: "My plane".
    CRM requires this. Until a pilot declares that he is the pilot flying, he is not the pilot flying. This error on the part of the PIC was a significant contributing factor. CRM is still too often thrown out the window during upsets.

    Leave a comment:

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