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BREAKING: Boeing 767 cargo jet operated by Atlas Air has crashed in Texas

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    Last I checked, those thrust levers are servo-driven. Did no one notice them surge forward or think to bring them back? Did anyone even have a hand on them?
    This looks like another perfectly tragic lesson in the supreme power of startle factor and situational confusion. Not that we needed another lesson.
    Last I checked you donÂ’t do extreme nose down inputs and extreme nose down attitudes except maybe if the plane is on fire or some other crazy rare circumstance.

    I think youÂ’re missing the elephant filled forest by looking at two levers.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Evan
      This looks like another perfectly tragic lesson in the supreme power of startle factor and situational confusion. Not that we needed another lesson.
      Originally posted by 3WE View Post
      Last I checked you donÂ’t do extreme nose down inputs and extreme nose down attitudes except maybe if the plane is on fire or some other crazy rare circumstances.
      Like these ones?

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Evan View Post
        Did anyone even have a hand on them?
        Most likely not. It was too early in the descent/approach. Normally pilots don't keep their hands in the controls when in AP/AT until they are established in final approach.

        --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
        --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Evan View Post
          Last I checked, those thrust levers are servo-driven. Did no one notice them surge forward or think to bring them back? Did anyone even have a hand on them?
          This looks like another perfectly tragic lesson in the supreme power of startle factor and situational confusion. Not that we needed another lesson.
          Somatogravic illusion?

          --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
          --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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          • #80
            Thanks for the regulation stuff on CVR disclosure, but I wasn't exactly asking why the actual transcript hasn't been released. I was just wondering why the NTSB didn't mention anything in its update about what started the chain of events.

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            • #81
              Originally posted by Evan View Post
              Like these ones?
              What ones? (Ok, I think this is an argument of agreement)

              Getting startled is not a reason to do a full-input-death-dive. Ground bad...Altitude good- that is awfully darn just almost completely universal.

              When in the hell do you EVER do (or practice) a full dive?

              Stall bad-a little shove-over is fine.

              Missed approach- aggressive pull up...that one is practiced...Finally rode one in IMC-and most likely inside the marker- it got my attention. Maybe you botch that one during an oh-crap moment...

              But again- TOTAL death dive while in IMC where "a steady hand on the controls" is what it's ALL about?

              Sorry- NOT an apples to apples deal.
              Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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              • #82
                Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                Somatogravic illusion?
                No No No No No!

                C'mon...

                A brief shove over fine...

                SHOVING the column full forward???

                Didn't this guy get instrument training and recovery from unusual attitudes?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

                When in the hell do you sit there- nose FULL down while the plane goes into 40-degrees nose down...

                Oh shit- wait, look at the AI here before we do anything else...
                (The oh shit and a little shove over are very much forgiven...NOT the death dive)

                Can someone with that kind of cognitive disorder really make it to the right seat of a 767? Did he know someone? The quintessential (and generally not_totally fair stereotype puppy mill graduate?
                Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                  No No No No No!

                  C'mon...

                  A brief shove over fine...

                  SHOVING the column full forward???
                  Yes, you are right. And I've heard that negative Gs wee involved. That should be a strong wake-up call stronger than any somatogravic illusion that maybe you are pushing down too hard.

                  But what then? Intentional act? That doesn't seem to match the "oh shit" comment by the FO once they broke out the clouds and the attempt to level off. UNLESS it as a masterpiece of cold blood intentional acting.

                  One thing that I am having problems to buy with this initial rumor sort of confirmed (still as a rumor) by BB is that of the captain pulling up so hard that he broke the pins holding the control column. It is my understanding (but I am not sure or even confident of it) that each control column controls its side of the elevator and both control columns are connected via a torque tube that has a spring-loaded connection which, if enough opposite force is applied on the control column, will separate and each control column will control it's side of the elevator independently (a split elevator), as it happened in the Egypt Air 900 suicide crash (also a 767).

                  --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                  --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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                  • #84
                    And, by the way, the absolute amount of nose-down attitude will do nothing to counteract the somatogravic illusion. You would not react to that illusion by pushing down sustained negative Gs, but you might keep pushing down for a sustained period of time while the pitch goes down somehow slowly until it reaches insane nose-down attitudes with your body still feeling that you are in an unusual nose-up attitude.

                    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                      Somatogravic illusion?
                      Probably. The other somatogravic illusion dive incidents were due to a sudden pitch reduction when leveling off from a steep climb. That produced a sensation that the nose is travelling further upward. The instinctive move would be to push down harder.

                      The cool-headed move would be to trust the "I" part of IMC.

                      The human mind, unfortunately, tends to prioritize the vestibular system over the inertial reference system.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                        And, by the way, the absolute amount of nose-down attitude will do nothing to counteract the somatogravic illusion. You would not react to that illusion by pushing down sustained negative Gs, but you might keep pushing down for a sustained period of time while the pitch goes down somehow slowly until it reaches insane nose-down attitudes with your body still feeling that you are in an unusual nose-up attitude.
                        Concuerdo

                        STILL THE SUPER CRAZY UBER BASIC FUNDAMENTALS OF INSTRUMENT FLIGHT ARE TO LOOK AT THE DIETY-CONDEMING ATTITUDE INDICATOR, TRUST IT, DOUBLE CHECK IT(IF YOU NEED TO) AND ADDRESS IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                        Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                          Somatogravic illusion?
                          In particular, the "head up" illusion caused by sudden acceleration.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Evan View Post
                            In particular, the "head up" illusion caused by sudden acceleration.
                            STILL THE SUPER CRAZY UBER BASIC FUNDAMENTALS OF INSTRUMENT FLIGHT ARE TO LOOK AT THE DIETY-CONDEMING ATTITUDE INDICATOR, TRUST IT, DOUBLE CHECK IT(IF YOU NEED TO) AND ADDRESS IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                            By the way- this was not a high-workload situation. NOT apples to apples on the disorientation of that Eastern Country go-around-rather-relentless-pull-up-to-stall-followed-by-steep-nose-dive/737 a couple years back.
                            Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Evan View Post
                              The other somatogravic illusion dive incidents were due to a sudden pitch reduction when leveling off from a steep climb. That produced a sensation that the nose is travelling further upward
                              We discussed this in the past. I don't think that that somatogravic illusion exists. I think you are getting it wrong.

                              --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                              --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                                We discussed this in the past. I don't think that that somatogravic illusion exists. I think you are getting it wrong.
                                STILL THE SUPER CRAZY UBER BASIC FUNDAMENTALS OF INSTRUMENT FLIGHT ARE TO LOOK AT THE DIETY-CONDEMING ATTITUDE INDICATOR, TRUST IT, DOUBLE CHECK IT(IF YOU NEED TO) AND ADDRESS IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                                (Or do I need more exclamation points?)

                                Again- I am a bit forgiving of go-around somtatographic deals- high workload and less-experienced pilots botching it...

                                But this is sooooooooooooooooooooooo basic that an ATP-AT LEAST- should not botch it (level off's and when flying 20+ miles away from the airport and a mile away from the ground....)
                                Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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