Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

BREAKING: Boeing 767 cargo jet operated by Atlas Air has crashed in Texas

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • obmot
    replied
    Belay my aforementioned request, after listening to the ATC audio loop about 10x I've figured most of it out and extracted the stuff I need.

    But sheesh, you aviator / ATC folks don't make it easy for us mere mortals who are limited to non-jet speed speaking and understanding!

    Leave a comment:


  • obmot
    replied
    Originally posted by B757300 View Post
    Saw this mentioned on Twitter.

    Listen to it when ATC received an "Ok" from the pilot. Instantly after the "ok" it sounds like there is a GPWS "PULL!" audible in the background. I've listened to it about 30 times (using ear buds) and it does sound to me like a "PULL" is heard, but maybe its a case of having the thought already planted in my head so I hear what I'm expecting. Occurs right around the 8:40 mark.

    Hi B757 & Gabriel . . .

    While I likely can't discern a pickle switch from a pitch trim wheel . . . I am somewhat 'nifty' with audio files. Rather nifty. So I listened to the ATC track you mentioned and I have some 'curiosities' - things that caught my ear -however due to my general piloting/ATC 'know not muchness' I am unable to discern if my 'curiosities' are valid or just totally off the mark.

    The reason specifically is that I'm not entirely sure in the series of communications <9:00 exactly who is who in each case. I'm wondering if you (or Gabriel) would be able to help me out in that regard so that I 'know' confidently what (whom) I'm listening to. Before timepoint let's say 9:00 . . . I need to know which 'coms' are the incident a/c (to ATC) and which are ATC to Atlas.

    I can identify some of them (including the '8:40' spot mentioned) but I need to know the other Atlas air/ATC coms before that 8:40 mark (and any after..I dont think there are any). I don't need much more than a roadmap such as (and this is totally made up):

    6:15 ATC to Atlas altitude clearance
    6:18 Altas readback/confirm
    6:40 Atlas to ATC weather inquiry
    6:56 ATC to Atlas course change instruction


    With all the other a/c and 'stuff' going on I can't be sure of who IS Atlas in each of their coms and when ATC coms with them each time (honestly I never can figure out how y'all can talk so fast with so many others and have any clue which what is what (my eternal respect that you can sort it all out!). But for the waveform analysis, I need to know each of their coms (again, ATC to Atlas and vice versa).

    The 'pull up' might not be the only 'hmmm' question - I've definitely got some curiosities but need a helping hand to be sure I know who is who. If you or someone else have a few minutes to write me a 'coms roadmap' as above.

    Thanks!

    Leave a comment:


  • obmot
    replied
    Originally posted by B757300 View Post

    I watched the 'youtube' clip first, about 3x then I watched the C2Houston clip twice and I immediately 'pondered' if the a/c 'nosedive' towards the last few moments wasn't lessening in nose down attitude, that is to say, it seemed to be more towards 'leveling out' than the first few moments.

    Then I watched the KHOU clip and interestingly one of the commentators mentioned that some avation folks had perhaps noticed the same thing.

    I only mention this b/c while I'm not a pilot/ATC - that 'lessening of pitch down' was (or seemed) very evident to me (a lay person) immediately in the first Ytube clip viewing . . . and if a layperson (me) sort of sensed it (as it seems others have) maybe there's something to that notion. Maybe.

    Leave a comment:


  • Schwartz
    replied
    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
    Could be. It would need to be huge shift of a huge load to be not correctable with elevator+trim. Even in the famous 747 crash captured on video where some super heavy armored vehicles shifted a lot back on take off, the investigation revealed that the plane would have been controllable had the control system not been damaged when the vehicles crashed with the inner back of the plane.

    As you say, unlikely. But what in my list is not unlikely? Nd believe, whatever it was, even if not listed, it will be something that would be categorized as unlikely a priori.
    Thanks Gabriel. I never read that 747 report until now. I think all the discussion about that accident is extremely misleading. The weight shift really wasn't much of a contributer at all. The bloody vehicle punctured the rear pressure bulkhead before the plane was even off the ground rupturing hydraulics and bending the horizontal stabilizer assembly in the back. The uncommanded movement of the horizontal stabilizer caused the pitch up and subsequent stall and crash. Wikipedia's description of the event is incorrect as it blames the weight shift for the pitch up and loss of control.

    What is sad is that the crew discussed the load shift in the prior flight segment and hoped the loadmaster was rectifying it.

    Leave a comment:


  • 3WE
    replied
    Originally posted by flashcrash View Post
    Do we have any info on take-off weight? If low enough, we could potentially eliminate cargo shift from consideration.
    I rank your weight shift as a real low likelihood, and believe that FDR data on control inputs + CVR will yield some sort of OTHER catastrophic control failure or one of the pilots pushing over due to something mental...

    ...and that this will happen BEFORE we can review whether there was enough weight and type of stuff to shift forward.

    Repeating Gabe's comment: The aero-engineers said that the Bahrain 747 was still flyable after the tank broke loose and rolled back...unfortunately, it jammed the elevators full up when it hit the back wall.

    Hard to fathom that a pallet of Amazon stuff is going to force a sudden steep dive like that.

    As long as we are speculating about everything and wild theories, there may have been some flap selection that took place and triggered something (no idea what, though).

    Leave a comment:


  • flashcrash
    replied
    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
    Could be. It would need to be huge shift of a huge load to be not correctable with elevator+trim.
    Do we have any info on take-off weight? If low enough, we could potentially eliminate cargo shift from consideration.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gabriel
    replied
    Originally posted by flashcrash View Post
    Is an unexpected cargo shift worthy of adding to the list?

    Admittedly pretty unlikely at this phase of the flight. But perhaps a gentle nose-down action could have initiated a slide if it were inadequately secured?
    Could be. It would need to be huge shift of a huge load to be not correctable with elevator+trim. Even in the famous 747 crash captured on video where some super heavy armored vehicles shifted a lot back on take off, the investigation revealed that the plane would have been controllable had the control system not been damaged when the vehicles crashed with the inner back of the plane.

    As you say, unlikely. But what in my list is not unlikely? Nd believe, whatever it was, even if not listed, it will be something that would be categorized as unlikely a priori.

    Leave a comment:


  • 3WE
    replied
    Originally posted by flashcrash View Post
    Is an unexpected cargo shift worthy of adding to the list?
    Yes.

    That and a meteor strike.

    Leave a comment:


  • flashcrash
    replied
    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
    With that I would start the speculation:
    - Murdecide
    - Trim runaway
    - Severe multiple hydraulic systems failure
    - Control cables to the elevator severed (the elevator is hydraulically actuated but I believe that the servo valves are located in the tail and controlled with the yoke via mechanical cables that run under the cabin floor).
    - Any of the last 2 may have been caused by an uncontained engine failure.
    - Movable stabilizer failure (like Alaska's MD-80).
    Is an unexpected cargo shift worthy of adding to the list?

    Admittedly pretty unlikely at this phase of the flight. But perhaps a gentle nose-down action could have initiated a slide if it were inadequately secured?

    Leave a comment:


  • Evan
    replied
    Looks very CFITy to me, but we've already heard a report the the CVR is consistent with a loss of control situation.
    So UFIT is more likely.
    But perhaps working a control issue distracted them from flying the plane.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gabriel
    replied
    I can see the nose, 2 wings, 2 engines, 2 sides if the horizontal tail, the angle doesn't let me see the fin but it seems to be flying very straight so I will assume that the fin is there.

    I think we can start to almost discard in flight break up.

    It also doesn't look like a stall, it didn't look like a stall since day 1 since the flightradar24 and flightaware sites showed quite healthy groundspeeds in the moments before the final dive.

    Also the flight path looks very straight, if it was a stall or any of the typical loss of control (including spatial disorientation) I would expect a not-so-wings-level flight.

    Finally, there doesn't seem to be any significant pitch-up motion.

    With that I would start the speculation:
    - Murdecide
    - Trim runaway
    - Severe multiple hydraulic systems failure
    - Control cables to the elevator severed (the elevator is hydraulically actuated but I believe that the servo valves are located in the tail and controlled with the yoke via mechanical cables that run under the cabin floor).
    - Any of the last 2 may have been caused by an uncontained engine failure.
    - Movable stabilizer failure (like Alaska's MD-80).

    Of course I can be totally wrong and it can be something totally different to any of the above. I suspect that we will know how this happened quite soon. [U]Why/U] will take longer.

    Leave a comment:


  • B757300
    replied
    A much clearer video of the aircraft has been released. This is the video footage that was mentioned during the first NTSB press conference.





    Raw video shows a cargo plane crash into Trinity Bay. Three crew members died in the crash. https://on.khou.com/2TjQ60Q

    Leave a comment:


  • Gabriel
    replied
    Aviation Herald - News, Incidents and Accidents in Aviation


    On Mar 5th 2019 the NTSB reported the download of the CVR was successfully completed, the last portion of the accident flight is available on the 2 hours' recording, the quality of the recording however is poor and it was difficult to determine what was being said, occasionally required advanced filter techniques. The aircraft was being vectored for an approach to Houston Intercontinental's airport's runway 26L. The NTSB stated: "Crew communications consistent with a loss control of the aircraft began approximately 18 seconds prior to the end of the recording." The FDR was also successfully read out, 54 hours of flight data spanning 17 flights were downloaded. The recorder stores about 350 parameters. The investigators are currently verifying and validating the FDR data. A transcript of the CVR is estimated to be compiled during the next week (Mar 11th and following).

    Leave a comment:


  • B757300
    replied
    And the flight data recorder has also been found.

    Leave a comment:


  • B757300
    replied
    The cockpit voice recorder has been recovered.



    Leave a comment:

Working...
X