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BREAKING: Boeing 767 cargo jet operated by Atlas Air has crashed in Texas

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  • Evan
    replied
    Originally posted by kent olsen View Post
    When you fly make yourself part of the aircraft. Hand fly it often so you can feel what it's trying to tell you. And then listen.
    Actually, this 'feeling it' aspect was the problem. Trusting the instruments over what the feeling is trying to tell you is how you avoid these accidents. That has proven to be a hard sell.

    Leave a comment:


  • kent olsen
    replied
    Well this accident scratched an old itch.

    I always told my students and the pilots that worked for me to remember one thing. You are up in the sky flying by the grace of God, since I don't see any feathers on your arms. Also it's not the fall from altitude that hurts, it's the sudden stop at the bottom.

    In my 45 years in aviation I watched many things change. One thing remained constant, every takeoff requires a landing. Over the years we've added autopilots, Flight Management Computers and many systems that think for the pilot. And that's where the hazard comes from. When the aircraft starts thinking for the pilot, the pilot is just there to taxi in and out. Think about what the aircraft is doing, what you are asking it to do. Confirm what you see or what the aircraft to do visually and confirm it with your instruments. Make that a habit as the one that will bite you invariably won't be the one you train for.

    When I was a Chief Pilot I had some of the best in the industry working for me. We had one of the best training departments in the industry. I had a crew on a pitch black night in the 747 experience a Boeing failure that caused the aircraft roll over and split S at FL300. They recovered safely and made an emergency landing even though they went through the speed of sound (M1.06). Another crew and another Boeing failure caused the number 2 engine pylon to fail taking the engine and all of the wing from the fuselage to the number 1 engine all the way back to the main spar, to leave the aircraft. Again a safe return to landing.

    When you fly make yourself part of the aircraft. Hand fly it often so you can feel what it's trying to tell you. And then listen.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gabriel
    replied
    Originally posted by flashcrash View Post

    Link to the public docket incorporating the July 27 2020 updates (with Feb 7 2020 statement from Atlas) is below:
    I am really impressed by Atlas's report. It is not just a "statement" from Atlas, it is their own NTSB-like full 95-pages accident report, with factual information, analysis, findings, cause, contributing factors, safety recommendations and exhibits.

    Leave a comment:


  • flashcrash
    replied
    Originally posted by kent olsen View Post
    Well the NTSB report is out! Wow! .
    Link to the public docket incorporating the July 27 2020 updates (with Feb 7 2020 statement from Atlas) is below:

    Leave a comment:


  • kent olsen
    replied
    Well the NTSB report is out! Wow! As i said earlier, there was a time with that performance info would be available to the new employer and then the FAA changed it. Some people would be better off driving a bus than an airplane. Quote from a fellow I met in Las Vegas. "I'm no different than you, I drive a bus with 30-40 passengers and you drive an airplane with 100".

    Leave a comment:


  • KGEG
    replied
    Originally posted by 3WE View Post

    Gabby:

    It’s not_uncommon for companies to not_make recommendations.

    One could give inaccurate recommendations and cause harm.

    A company could screw over a good employee with an incorrect bad recommendation...a company could screw over a competitor with an incorrect good recommendation.

    Folks can hire lawyers and play “the big bad company” vs “the poor working stiff”.

    Or, if the pilot here had a good recommendation from the Mayberry FBO where he gave Andy Taylor flying lessons...Is there liability?

    There is often guidance from HR: “John Doe worked here from 10/2015 to 3/2018.” And then say nothing more.

    We do that in the fertilizer industry some, so why not aviation?

    But I think its completely different to with-hold something that has been witnessed by multiple co-workers and bosses in an unbiased way than one boss saying 'I am going to give this guy a bad rap and make some stuff up that never happened because I think he and my wife were having an affair". But I guess thats the problem, having solid proof and presenting it to the new company. But in the end they have to figure out the new employees weaknesses for themselves.

    So its any classic tale of risk versus reward. Do we have the next Sully on our hands or do we have Mr. Magoo who somehow faked his way through an eye exam? If he saves the lives of a hundred people by landing in the river as smooth as possible or if he mistakes his co-pilots nose for the flap lever.

    Sometimes you don't figure out someones weaknesses until its too late and they are now gone and have taken other out with them, as is the case here. But thats why it seems so preventable with there being warning signs. We see this in cases like school shootings where it was clear the kid or student was having a mental breakdown but nothing was done in time to stop a tragedy despite the signs.

    It really is a case of there being a fine line between doing too little to stop them from hurting others and doing too much to impede a persons right to work and do as they wish with life.

    And its funny you mention the fertilizer industry because thats what my dads last line of truck driving was, hauling fertilizer from a plant in British Columbia to farm towns here in the northwest, and is one reason he quit because the mountain road to Trail, BC was so poorly maintained in the winter for a 100,000 pound plus truck. To the point of having to be towed up it several times.

    But even in that industry you have laws to limit things such as making sure you are not selling certain fertilizer to a dude who wants to make a bomb.

    Leave a comment:


  • 3WE
    replied
    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post

    What liability could be involved here?
    Gabby:

    It’s not_uncommon for companies to not_make recommendations.

    One could give inaccurate recommendations and cause harm.

    A company could screw over a good employee with an incorrect bad recommendation...a company could screw over a competitor with an incorrect good recommendation.

    Folks can hire lawyers and play “the big bad company” vs “the poor working stiff”.

    Or, if the pilot here had a good recommendation from the Mayberry FBO where he gave Andy Taylor flying lessons...Is there liability?

    There is often guidance from HR: “John Doe worked here from 10/2015 to 3/2018.” And then say nothing more.

    We do that in the fertilizer industry some, so why not aviation?

    Leave a comment:


  • Gabriel
    replied
    Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post

    I don't believe Ken is entirely correct. I'm not aware of an FAA regulation of policy prohibiting airlines from issuing recommendation letters, it's more that it's not normal practice, perhaps for liability reasons.
    What liability could be involved here?

    Leave a comment:


  • ATLcrew
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post

    Why on earth not? Piloting is certainly a job that needs full disclosure of weaknesses.
    I don't believe Ken is entirely correct. I'm not aware of an FAA regulation of policy prohibiting airlines from issuing recommendation letters, it's more that it's not normal practice, perhaps for liability reasons.

    Leave a comment:


  • BoeingBobby
    replied
    Originally posted by 3WE View Post

    I feel most sorry for the guy who jumpseated...
    The kid had a class date coming up at United. I believe he was an RJ Captain for one of the commuters. With the layoffs that are about to happen, he probably would be furloughed soon anyway. I believe he was married and had a young child. Atlas and probably Amazon will surely be paying out on that. But those last couple of minutes for him, I can only imagine. ​​​​

    Leave a comment:


  • 3WE
    replied
    Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
    The problem is, he was passed! He had multiple problems at multiple companies. Yet not only did Atlas hire him, they pushed him through training. I blame the training department for not only allowing this, but to continue to do it. You want to blame someone? Blame Jeff Carlson!
    I appreciate your comments- I know nothing of transport piloting, but even in my own line of work, MBA's and the HR department are all about checking the boxes on stuff. "If you measure it, you can improve it" they say". However there is stuff that is intangible. So what if you make 20 sales calls. You can make 20 worthless sales calls, you can make one really quick sales call and be successful and a really hard one and be successful...the success may have everything to do with your skill and nothing to do with "the number of calls".

    I can see where you sit there and program the autopilot like a whiz, but to hand fly...much different skill set...

    I feel most sorry for the guy who jumpseated...

    Leave a comment:


  • BoeingBobby
    replied
    Originally posted by 3WE View Post

    Or is it a lack of fundamental skills?

    Sure, I'll jump on the poor dead pilot, something was wrong with his actions...But FWIW, he passed a LOT of checklist tests, screening and oversight (Bobby's concerns noted).
    The problem is, he was passed! He had multiple problems at multiple companies. Yet not only did Atlas hire him, they pushed him through training. I blame the training department for not only allowing this, but to continue to do it. You want to blame someone? Blame Jeff Carlson!

    Leave a comment:


  • 3WE
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post

    This is a dead horse about lost situational awareness.
    Or is it a lack of fundamental skills?

    This one is uuuuuuuuber simple: Don't screw with a big, stable airplane: Aviate.

    Aviate: Like maybe peek at attitude and airspeed (vertical speed) and determine if it is FDNH.

    Sure, I'll jump on the poor dead pilot, something was wrong with his actions...But FWIW, he passed a LOT of checklist tests, screening and oversight (Bobby's concerns noted).

    Leave a comment:


  • Evan
    replied
    Originally posted by 3WE View Post

    The horse is fairly dead and the more I think about it it is not THOUGHT of stalling VERSUS a FEELING of nose up- they COMBINE TOGETHER...
    This is a dead horse about lost situational awareness. A pilot, with not a lot of grace under pressure, became bewildered by an unexpected event (see AF447). When this happens the mind grasps for clues to recontruct situational awareness. Naturally, the senses take priority over the rational mind. Then, the rational mind might be subject to confirmation bias, giving weight to the senses. Competent upset recovery involves overcoming these things, including the discipline to prioritize the instruments despite what the senses are screaming at you. This F/O didn't have that discipline.

    If the F/O had a situational awareness cue that he had accidentally activated the go-around mode, he wouldn't have had to form his own version of the situation.

    As Gabriel pointed out, the difference between this go-around and any other go-around was that the crew didn't initiate it or expect it. Apparently, when the mind is commanding and expecting longitudinal forces, they do not create somatogravic illusions.

    Leave a comment:


  • 3WE
    replied
    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post

    It is possible. Let's see what is NTSB's analysis on this when the final report comes out
    The horse is fairly dead and the more I think about it it is not THOUGHT of stalling VERSUS a FEELING of nose up- they COMBINE TOGETHER...

    Leave a comment:

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