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Breaking news: Ethiopian Airlines flight has crashed on way to Nairobi

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  • [QUOTE=Highkeas;680001]
    Originally posted by 3WE View Post


    The terrain elevation at the last transponder report is 8130 feet MSL per Aviation Herald.
    If talking about Ethipian, its altitude was 8300 FT but elevation in aDDIS aBBABA IS 7,700ft

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Highkeas View Post
      From Today's Aviation Daily:

      Even if MCAS is considered too risky to be used in service, regulators have at least one option beyond grounding aircraft, a former regulatory official told Aviation Daily. “If MCAS is the problem, disconnect it,” the official said. “Establish revised operational limitations that reflect MCAS’s unavailability, such as not flying below certain airspeeds, and mandate them until the issue is resolved. There’s no need to ground the aircraft.”

      https://aviationweek.com/commercial-...e49c59bf575c6b
      Genius! Disconnect the system needed to certify the aircraft and inform pilots not to stall until we get back to you. Some really serious logic vs bias imbalance going on there.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Kapitan View Post
        If talking about Ethipian, its altitude was 8300 FT but elevation in aDDIS aBBABA IS 7,700ft
        I again ask- is MCAS the cause of the Ethiopian crash...I was not aware it had been identified as the cause.

        Gabe and Bobby hinted at it- NORMAL FLYING THINGS over ride this system...NORMAL FLYING THINGS that apply to Cessna 172s, J-31's Q-400s, A-300s and MD-8x's 757s 767s 787s 747s 737-236as and 737-MiniSinks....Lion Air, Ethiopian...whatever.
        Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
          I again ask- is MCAS a factor in the Ethiopian crash...I was not aware it had been identified as anything remotely related to the accident other than it was installed in the plane, let alone the cause
          Fixed.

          --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
          --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

          Comment


          • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
            No.
            No? What is the 3WE anti-procedure for UAS again? Oh, right, fly at known power levels and attitudes. Fly the GD plane. Because it's just a big Cessna.

            Oh, except it just pitched down? WTF is going on? How do I stay safely in the speed envelope now? Pitch back up. Trim back up. Now what is my airspeed? Ok, back to known... nope... it keeps wanting to pitch down. I can't establish a known attitude here. Whoa! Stickshaker! What is my airspeed? I've got a FEEL DIFF PRESS light? Everything is happening too fast to sort out and by the way what's the deal with the trim coming back on after I just— (time expired)

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Evan View Post
              No? What is the 3WE anti-procedure for UAS again? Oh, right, fly at known power levels and attitudes. Fly the GD plane. It's NOT A CESSNA, but Physics is Physics

              Oh, except it just pitched down? WTF is going on? How do I stay safely in the speed envelope now? Trim back up. Pitch back up. Now what is my airspeed? Ok, back to known... nope... it keeps wanting to pitch down. I can't establish a known attitude here. Whoa! Stickshaker! What is my airspeed? I've got a FEEL DIFF PRESS light? Everything is happening too fast to sort out and by the way what's the deal with the trim coming back on after I just— (time expired)
              I don't know what YOU are doing with your airplane Evan...

              My airplane stayed within 5 degrees of the desired climb attitude and my airspeed within 15 knots of target (correct, I don't know what it is, but it's "not going anywhere exotic")...I'm continuing up to my assigned altitude while the Pilot-fancy-acronym-other-guy is running various memory procedures and checklists (maybe even to your 98% of your satisfaction level).

              I bet Gabe's airplane is performing similarly to mine...unfortunately his explanation will take much longer to read- but it will be somewhat more accurate than mine, though fundamentally not all that different.

              I don't know what the FEEL DIFF PRESS light means, nor do I give a flying [naughty word] what it means. I read that I can put in nose-up trim all day...and if that keeps me above the cumulogranite clouds, then that's exactly what's going to be done.

              Bobby is probably doing this with twice the panache and half the deviations. He probably understands what FEEL DIFF PRESS means, but somehow I think he's not unnecessarily distracted by it and his airplane is climbing too.

              It's an awesome system.
              Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                Fixed.
                Noted.
                Concur.
                Thanks.
                Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                  May I guess that the vast majority of pilots would win that?

                  May I challenge you and ask if you see this system as something that is going to fool more folks than "*should be" fooled

                  (*Yes, you can't make it 100.0000% fool proof against ALL idiots, but there is always that subtle insidiousness like 99.9% of the time you pull up to go up).
                  And you might stub your toe on the way out your front door later today too.

                  Comment


                  • Until these two accidents, I had never even heard of the MCAS system. And I have zero experience in any model of the 737. Probably why I didn't know that they kept the old trim wheel design. I have an old Atlas friend that went over to Southwest about 12 years ago, and have asked him to explain it and give me his thoughts on the system. Let you know when I hear back from him.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                      And you might stub your toe on the way out your front door later today too.
                      I have also crashed my bicycle a few times too.
                      Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                        Until these two accidents, I had never even heard of the MCAS system. And I have zero experience in any model of the 737. Probably why I didn't know that they kept the old trim wheel design. I have an old Atlas friend that went over to Southwest about 12 years ago, and have asked him to explain it and give me his thoughts on the system. Let you know when I hear back from him.
                        It will be interesting to learn if he knows any more about it then a bunch of parlour-talking forumites.

                        Comment


                        • IANAP. I'm a statistician. Dealing with uncertainty is what I do. We have it here in spades.

                          I refer to whether the FAA should ground (as many other respected agencies have done) or not. If they are being objective and using the same information (or lack thereof) then one would not expect this difference. Determining risk is their day job.

                          Lion Air was MCAS related. If this incident were to be also found to be MCAS related then I assume everybody here would agree that grounding until an acceptable fix was in place would be the correct course. This in particular because as a new aircraft the number of hours flown is building rapidly as more come into service and two losses in such a short time would indicate there is a significant risk of another incident.

                          But of course we do not know. We do know that most of the circumstantial evidence is compatible with a MCAS induced incident. It's the strength of what experienced pilots and aircraft engineers would bet their lifesavings on whether it will be, or not. 20%, 50%? Even the lower figure if taken as a risk factor and multiplied up by the hours being flown I would have thought, taken the Max into risk territory that would trigger grounding.

                          My thoughts, but don't dwell on them too long since we must be getting very close to the first read out of the flight recorders which, again I assume, will point towards or away from MCAS enabling all the agencies to lift or enforce no-fly conditions. Will it be that simple?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                            Until these two accidents, I had never even heard of the MCAS system. And I have zero experience in any model of the 737. Probably why I didn't know that they kept the old trim wheel design. I have an old Atlas friend that went over to Southwest about 12 years ago, and have asked him to explain it and give me his thoughts on the system. Let you know when I hear back from him.
                            In your defense, NOBODY outside Boeing (and perhaps the FAA) had heard of the MCAS system before the Lion AIR crash, when EVERYBODY heard about it.
                            Also it is a new system in the MAX. Previous versions of the 737 (including the NG) did not have it.

                            --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                            --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Evan View Post
                              What happens just prior to a MCAS runaway on the NG?
                              That's kinda asking what happens if the FBW reverts to alternate law in the 707. (I know, you meant MAX not NG)

                              --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                              --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                              Comment


                              • Evan, please keep this into mind:

                                You WILL SEE AND HEAR the trim wheel spinning. You cannot miss that.

                                This Friday we have taken our Boeing 737 CL full flight simulator to some undiscovered malfunction flight. Runaway stabilizer malfunction has given some seri...

                                --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                                --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                                Comment

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