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Gabe, I have come to the conclusion that you and Evan just like to argue. I am too old and tired to banter back and forth with the two of you. You both win, you are both right and us old dinosaur pilot's have no idea what we are talking about. Now if I can just get this ADS B and the TOPMS to fit in my Cub, I guess I will survive.
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Originally posted by Evan View PostSo what's the criteria for the right seat? Intern? Personal assistant?
By the time you get in a commercial cockpit, either seat, you are indeed a certified and tested pilot. You are also a human being. No matter the hours you have under your belt, you are always vulnerable to the imperfections of being human.
One of those imperfections of being human is the inability to reliably concentrate and act on multiple dimensions of information under extreme stress and emergency. The mind narrows its focus in such situations, by nature, to what is most immediately threatening, by evolutionary design. Hours mean little here.
Another of these imperfections is the mind's inability to maintain clear situational awareness and make clear, rational decisions under the same stressful and urgent circumstances. 30,000 hours will not make you immune to this. Especially when not a single hour of that experience involves this situation.
That is the forest I see, and it is a dense one. There is no green pasture where experienced captains can be relied upon to confront every situation correctly just by merit of being an experienced pilot.
Medical science knows this. The industry knows this. Boeing knows this. Procedures have been written for this reason. If those procedures are flawed, people die, planes get grounded and the costs run into the billions.
Boeing got the procedure wrong for this. They apparently did not think it through very well. Like you, they placed blind confidence in seasoned airmanship and human performance despite a mealstrom of tasks and concentration factors and all that we've learned about the effects they have on human performance.
Now tell me who wasn't seeing the forest for the trees.
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Originally posted by BoeingBobby View PostNow if I can just get this ADS B and the TOPMS to fit in my Cub, I guess I will survive.
--- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
--- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---
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Originally posted by Evan View Post'mealstrom' is a human error, a 'typo', which I made despite having been a typing professional for over 25000 hours. Do you see my point?
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Originally posted by BoeingBobby View PostYou will NEVER be happy. I recommend you sell everything you own, and move to the North woods of Canada and live off the land
In the meantime, we are discussing the tragic deaths of 346 people which was not simply the result of pilot error or 'inherent risk'. As time passes, it has become increasing clear that this was preventable by both design and procedure.
Do have anything useful to add?
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Originally posted by Evan View PostI may just do that. Especially if there's no internet.
In the meantime, we are discussing the tragic deaths of 346 people which was not simply the result of pilot error or 'inherent risk'. As time passes, it has become increasing clear that this was preventable by both design and procedure.
Do have anything useful to add?
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Originally posted by BoeingBobby View PostNo, and it never will. Just the way I like it. Very dangerous ��
--- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
--- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---
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Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg gave a very disturbing press conference today. It was disturbing because it shows an executive leadership either still in denial or willing to downplay responsibility as well as publicly evade transparency with regard to the facts.
It included this astonishing statement:
"When we design these systems, understand that these airplanes are flown in the hands of pilots," he said. He added that Boeing was unable to find any "technical slip or gap" in building its MCAS software.
It also entirely ignores the fact that 'these airplanes are flown in the hands of pilots' that were never told about the system in the first place, let alone provided a procedure to deal with any erroneous behavior.
The second part is self-evidently disturbing. There was a HUGE slip involved in creating the MCAS system. That is, of course, why it is now being significantly modified.
He also claimed that the Ethiopian pilots did not "completely" follow the procedures that Boeing had outlined. This is disturbing because Boeing still hasn't seemed to acknowledge that those procedures were the result of flawed or limited thinking. Thus, he gives us no reason to hope the procedures will be rethought.
Overall, his statements seem to affirm my belief that the cancer at Boeing is rooted in its management culture which places the highest concern on preserving its near-term image to shareholders at the expense of safety and long-term outlook and that these tragic consequences have done nothing to purge that culture.
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Originally posted by Evan View PostBoeing got the procedure wrong for this. They apparently did not think it through very well. Like you, they placed blind confidence in seasoned airmanship and human performance despite a maelstrom of tasks and concentration factors and all that we've learned about the effects they have on human performance.
Now tell me who wasn't seeing the forest for the trees.
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Originally posted by Evan View PostBoeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg gave a very disturbing press conference today. It was disturbing because it shows an executive leadership either still in denial or willing to downplay responsibility as well as publicly evade transparency with regard to the facts.
It included this astonishing statement:
The first part of that statement reveals the central flaw in Boeing's philosophy, which seems to provide the cool-headed, proficiency of pilots under immense stress as the only redundancy for certain critical system failures. We know that doesn't always work. The NSTB knows it, the FAA knows it and Boeing knows it. I can't even count how many times we've learned this hard lesson.
It also entirely ignores the fact that 'these airplanes are flown in the hands of pilots' that were never told about the system in the first place, let alone provided a procedure to deal with any erroneous behavior.
The second part is self-evidently disturbing. There was a HUGE slip involved in creating the MCAS system. That is, of course, why it is now being significantly modified.
He also claimed that the Ethiopian pilots did not "completely" follow the procedures that Boeing had outlined. This is disturbing because Boeing still hasn't seemed to acknowledge that those procedures were the result of flawed or limited thinking. Thus, he gives us no reason to hope the procedures will be rethought.
Overall, his statements seem to affirm my belief that the cancer at Boeing is rooted in its management culture which places the highest concern on preserving its near-term image to shareholders at the expense of safety and long-term outlook and that these tragic consequences have done nothing to purge that culture.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/29/inves...ing/index.html
--- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
--- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---
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Originally posted by Gabriel View PostI agree, but I suspect that he knows very well that they screwed up and this speech is PR and an attempt to economic and legal protection for the company and for the executives themselves. It is suicidal to say "our irresponsible negligence killed 300+". Boeing KNOW that they screw up, they KNOW how to fix it, and the WILL (else the plane will not be certified again except perhaps in the USA).
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