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Breaking news: Ethiopian Airlines flight has crashed on way to Nairobi

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  • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
    I guarantee you that had I been on the crew in either A/C it would not have ended the way it did.
    Bobby: There's two ways to look at this crash and it's scary...

    There's Scenario 1: "Routine takeoff 9,423,430 and WHAM...a crap load of bad warnings and the plane noses over and you don't have a clue what the hell is going on...."

    And there's Scenario 2: "WTF, ALONG WITH A BUNCH OF WARNINGS, the BIG LOUD trim wheel is spinning nose down and the nose is going with it...I better kill the trim...(or you just trim nose up with your thumb)."

    It's probably correct that you kind of fit in scenario 2 and wouldn't have crashed.

    The question, though, is if we are nuts for having a tiny bit of sympathy for guys who had no altitude to play with and there's four warnings going off and you are told not to trust airspeed or AOA, and told to go to an approximate 4-degree nose up attitude...

    What are your thoughts on red-font-scenario 1? Are we full of crap for having a little sympathy? Are we full of crap for thinking one sensor = a bunch of warnings and a significant nose-over trend?

    The more we beat the dead horse here, I get bigger questions on Lion Air...but would you comment on our outsider ignorance?
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
      I am not so sure. They designed a system with a single point of failure that would simultaneously trigger IAS disagree, ALT disagree, FD disagree, AoA disagree, stickshaker on the affected side, and repeated large automatic nose-down trim commands that could go all the way to full nose-down trim...blah blah blah....There are fuzzy terms there,....blah blah blah.
      Gabe, you missed my point.

      I am SURE Boeing has a phrase of "Safety First"
      I'm sure they know that crashes kill people AND profits- they do NOT want to build bad aeroplanies!
      I m sure that checklists were followed.
      I'm sure that almost all FAA requirements were followed to a t*(including the fuzzy ones...).
      I'm sure that smart people reviewed and signed off on what they were doing.

      My real question is if there was a huge cohort there who saw this as something bad, but were truly silenced, shunned, fired, demoted, whatever...

      I can see the conference room- WOW, one sensor goes out and you nose over- I don't like the sound of that? No, it's not that bad, you just switch off the trim, and who's going to miss it with our huge-ass, non Airbus trim wheel spinning and clacking...Yeah, OK...anyone else feel different?

      If everyone basically agrees, you have another amazing-but-sad human error...(Oh, Comets crack open after a several thousand cycles...that rudder servo can get into a goofy reverse mode...wow, we tried SO hard to make it right, but crap happens)

      The question to me isn't to bad mouth the design TODAY, but to ask who noticed BEFORE? and if there were cover up or silencing pressures. (And I mean WHO noticed...not SHOULD someone have noticed).
      Last edited by 3WE; 2019-04-30, 19:01. Reason: Edit- I changed the big T to a small t* for a specific reason!
      Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
        Bobby: There's two ways to look at this crash and it's scary...

        There's Scenario 1: "Routine takeoff 9,423,430 and WHAM...a crap load of bad warnings and the plane noses over and you don't have a clue what the hell is going on...."?

        Sorry but I don't understand the significance of the very large number?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
          Sorry but I don't understand the significance of the very large number?
          Sorry to go LHB-744 on you- it was a generic, BIG, number:

          In other words- after lots and lots and lots of routine takeoffs some people may be unprepared for a bunch of warnings going off and may mentally freeze.

          I have some sympathy for the Ethopian guys because they really didn't have any altitude to play with and Gabriel offered up that scenario of "it's stalling and telling me I can't rely on the airspeed"...it hit them at a really bad time and the trim wheel may not have been the first thing they noticed.

          I imagine you may have 'paused' to review what might go wrong before every takeoff you've ever made...Conversely, there's the phrase of "hours of sheer boredom interrupted by sudden, sheer terror"...

          Again- asking you if we are off base to have a little sympathy for the Ethiopian crew. You envision that you'd pick up right away that the trim was misbehaving...and I tend to believe you would do exactly that...but I'm not sure all of us would...
          Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
            No, it's not that bad, you just switch off the trim, and who's going to miss it with our huge-ass, non Airbus trim wheel spinning and clacking...
            What's wrong with the big Airbus trim wheel?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Evan View Post
              What's wrong with the big Airbus trim wheel?
              I don't think it functions quite the same.
              Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

              Comment


              • Has the conspiracy been going on since the 60's?

                Who wrote these procedures?

                Please support this channel by following me on Patreonhttps://www.patreon.com/allecibayMusic: Comedy Is OverArtist: Dalo VianListen to the entire music here:...


                A travesty, I tell you!

                (Font my be a bit blue).

                Not Blue: Broken culture or just a sad oversight?
                Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                  I don't think it functions quite the same.
                  No clacking. And it's hydraulically powered (but still mechanical cable-operated to function without electrical power) so not as much spinning. But then, there's no pitch trim runaway either.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                    Gabe, you missed my point.

                    I am SURE Boeing has a phrase of "Safety First"
                    I'm sure they know that crashes kill people AND profits- they do NOT want to build bad aeroplanies!
                    I m sure that checklists were followed.
                    I'm sure that almost all FAA requirements were followed to a t*(including the fuzzy ones...).
                    I'm sure that smart people reviewed and signed off on what they were doing.

                    My real question is if there was a huge cohort there who saw this as something bad, but were truly silenced, shunned, fired, demoted, whatever...

                    I can see the conference room- WOW, one sensor goes out and you nose over- I don't like the sound of that? No, it's not that bad, you just switch off the trim, and who's going to miss it with our huge-ass, non Airbus trim wheel spinning and clacking...Yeah, OK...anyone else feel different?

                    If everyone basically agrees, you have another amazing-but-sad human error...(Oh, Comets crack open after a several thousand cycles...that rudder servo can get into a goofy reverse mode...wow, we tried SO hard to make it right, but crap happens)

                    The question to me isn't to bad mouth the design TODAY, but to ask who noticed BEFORE? and if there were cover up or silencing pressures. (And I mean WHO noticed...not SHOULD someone have noticed).
                    I did not miss your point. And I am sure that someone(s) did realize that this design was terrible and unacceptable. And nothing was done. It could be that the person(s) that realized didn't act (have you heard the story of the naked king?) or that they did act but were not heard (by Boeing and/or the FAA)

                    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Evan View Post
                      No clacking. And it's hydraulically powered (but still mechanical cable-operated to function without electrical power) so not as much spinning. But then, there's no pitch trim runaway either.
                      It needs other than muscle power to work. There is ALWAYS a motor between the wheel and the stabilizer.

                      --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                      --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                        It needs other than muscle power to work. There is ALWAYS a motor between the wheel and the stabilizer.
                        Two motors. Multiple, discreet power sources. Fail-operational with total electrical power loss and loss of all engine-powered hydraulic sources. Redundancy.
                        Independent of human muscle strength limitations. Modern.

                        Comment


                        • In a statement to CNN, a Boeing spokesperson said the 737 Max and its stall-prevention system, called MCAS, were certified in accordance with all FAA requirements, and that Boeing's analysis for the plane determined that in the event of erroneous inputs from an AOA sensor, pilots would be able to maintain control of the plane by following established procedures.

                          "Single sources of data are considered acceptable in such cases by our industry," the Boeing spokesperson said.
                          Gabriel? Would you concur?

                          Comment


                          • and so, in the fine tradition of the current captains of american industry (oh, and the orangutan that is occupying the oval office), boeing is changing the narrative, or as the orangutan says, positing alternate facts.

                            all this while our govt goes hog wild, apeshit on vw for falsifying EMISSIONS tests. yeah! that's important!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Evan View Post
                              Gabriel? Would you concur?
                              No. The explanation is my previous post regarding 14 CFR 25.1309, in light of the consequences in this particular application if said single data source starts to give erroneous data.

                              --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                              --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Evan View Post
                                Two motors. Multiple, discreet power sources. Fail-operational with total electrical power loss and loss of all engine-powered hydraulic sources. Redundancy.
                                Independent of human muscle strength limitations. Modern.
                                Exactly. Hence 3WE's comment "I don't think it functions quite the same".

                                --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                                --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                                Comment

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