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  • #91
    Originally posted by Schwartz View Post
    Evan, I don't quite agree. If the only issue highlighted by Lion Air was easily mitigated by better training, then I don't see why they should have grounded all the planes.
    It highlighted something that really stunned me: there is no fault tolerance on a system that is designed to override pilot commands. That's absurd. The danger lies in the fact that a malfunction can both upset the stable flight path and confuse the pilots. We call that recipe 'loss of situational awareness' and it has killed many a skilled, veteran pilot. Keeping the MAX in service, having learned (the hard way) that a potentially fatal issue exists with the system that can disorient the pilot and yet relying solely on correct, clear-headed, situationally aware pilot actions to deal with it until a new system can be installed is a fools errand. Gambling passengers lives on it is, well... criminal.

    Here's the question I want answered: why didn't Boeing provide redundancy here? How could they have not foreseen the single-fault scenario that occurred (possibly twice now)?

    The vulnerability is glaring to me. You NEVER want to create a sudden upset, because human factors are powerful things.... much more powerful than hubris. This one was 100% avoidable.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by Highkeas View Post
      Update: Minutes after posting my questions this story popped up on my PC: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/pi...cid=spartandhp
      You know, everyone is talking about MCAS and not about the other half of the problem: the AoA sensors and the ADR data systems. A single AoA sensor failure, if undetected, could cause the autopilot behavior they describe. Is there a supply-chain issue here? Are these sensors coming from a new supplier? Is the failure rate higher than that of the NG's? We are talking about very new sensors here.

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      • #93
        Originally posted by flashcrash View Post
        Article in Fortune Magazine confirmed: EASA suspends all 737 MAX operations in Europe:

        https://www.easa.europa.eu/newsroom-...rations-europe
        This Social Network Effect is amazingly powerful. It's moving millions of dollars right now. For no other reasons than "and if...."

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        • #94
          Originally posted by Evan View Post
          It highlighted something that really stunned me: there is no fault tolerance on a system that is designed to override pilot commands. That's absurd.
          Here science expires and philosophy comes in.
          Who is more reliable? An expert pilot or a perfect SW? (*)
          Unfortunately, there is not an unique answer to this question, so there is not a unique solution to this problem because:
          Humans have long response times and they are not accurate, but they are smart and can cope with unpredictable events.
          SW is fast and accurate but completely stupid, so it cannot manage unpredictable events and "nonsense" sensor readings.

          This is why finding the root cause and events chain of an accident requires months and experts, not just hours and kids typing on a smartphone.

          (*) does it exist a perfect SW? philosophy comes in again when it have to been decided if a SW is working "properly": properly according to what? Requirements written by who? on which basis? based on which... philosophy?

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          • #95
            There are multiple, consistent eye witness reports that the plane was on fire before it impacted; one report was of debris/material falling off or from with in fuselage. Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnCtVuLn5iY

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            • #96
              Following the Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX 8 crash on March 10th and the Indonesian Lion Air 737 MAX 8 crash on October 29th 2018, I discuss the safety ...

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              • #97
                Originally posted by Evan View Post
                I can't wait for the tell-all documentary on how this half-baked system ever got certification in the first place.
                It might go something like this:

                Originally posted by NY TImes
                For decades, the F.A.A. has used a network of outside experts, known as F.A.A. designees, to certify that aircraft meet safety standards. In 2005, the regulator shifted its approach for how it delegated authority outside the agency, creating a new program through which aircraft manufacturers like Boeing could choose their own employees to be the designees and help certify their planes.The program is intended to help the F.A.A. stretch its limited resources, while also benefiting plane makers who are eager to avoid delays in the certification process.

                “It’s a very cozy relationship,” said Jim Hall, the former head of the National Transportation Safety Board. “The manufacturer essentially becomes both the manufacturer and the regulator, because of the lack of the ability of government to do the job.”
                One of the casuatlies of this crash may be the FAA itself. They are rapidly losing their worldwide credibility over their handling of this issue. Their defiance of the EASA, the UK CAA, Australia's CASA and almost every other respected aviation authority in the world, in supporting Boeing, a major lobbying force in Washington that employs many of their resources, pretty much tells the tale.

                This is not just some populist internet "witch hunt" reaction to a plane crash. There are solid, technical concerns here, based on the known facts and findings of the Lion Air crash and the AD that the investigation produced, that absolutely, without question, warrant a temporary grounding of the 737MAX. This action is coming months too late, and if the latest crash involves the same vulnerabilities, it will be a tragic thing indeed.

                At this point, I am hoping the recorders are NOT sent to the US, and that EASA handles the initial investigation. That is how damaged my impression of the impartiality of US regulatory oversight has become.

                Boeing’s chief made a personal appeal to President Trump, calling from Chicago to express his confidence in the safety of the company’s 737 Max 8 jets.

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                • #98
                  Originally posted by Evan View Post
                  It might go something like this:



                  One of the casuatlies of this crash may be the FAA itself. They are rapidly losing their worldwide credibility over their handling of this issue. Their defiance of the EASA, the UK CAA, Australia's CASA and almost every other respected aviation authority in the world, in supporting Boeing, a major lobbying force in Washington that employs many of their resources, pretty much tells the tale.

                  This is not just some populist internet "witch hunt" reaction to a plane crash. There are solid, technical concerns here, based on the known facts and findings of the Lion Air crash and the AD that the investigation produced, that absolutely, without question, warrant a temporary grounding of the 737MAX. This action is coming months too late, and if the latest crash involves the same vulnerabilities, it will be a tragic thing indeed.

                  At this point, I am hoping the recorders are NOT sent to the US, and that EASA handles the initial investigation. That is how damaged my impression of the impartiality of US regulatory oversight has become.

                  https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/12/b...-grounded.html
                  And this is the opinion of a high time ATP rated pilot, with 10000+ hours and multiple type ratings in jet aircraft. Right?

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                  • #99
                    I think I’d agree for once that the recorders should not be sent to the NTSB, if only to ensure the strictest impartiality. While I give the FAA some credit for not giving in to social media pressure and wanting to wait for clear data, there’s no doubt that the worldwide perception of US credibility has been damaged, and it’s hard to counter that now.

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                    • Originally posted by HalcyonDays View Post
                      I think I’d agree for once that the recorders should not be sent to the NTSB, if only to ensure the strictest impartiality. While I give the FAA some credit for not giving in to social media pressure and wanting to wait for clear data, there’s no doubt that the worldwide perception of US credibility has been damaged, and it’s hard to counter that now.
                      I agree with you. I think they should send them to Evan's house, have LH 744 flown in from Germany, and the two of them can take them apart in Evan's parents garage and let the world know what the problem is.

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                      • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                        And this is the opinion of a high time ATP rated pilot, with 10000+ hours and multiple type ratings in jet aircraft. Right?
                        i gotta side with evan here. it certainly appears as though the separation between the wall street whores and the regulators has disappeared, as it has in just about every sector of american life. sure, as the conservatives demand, the all important shareholders are making more money. i guess no one cares that they too occasionally fly on these contraptions. too bad the 159 ET pax weren't all boeing shareholders on the way to a shareholder meeting, eh?

                        not too long ago, in handling a large condominium lawsuit in FL, i discovered that in certain municipalities, a developer can be its own building official. that is, the developer self-certifies its work in constructing a high-rise and all of its core life-safety systems and there is near ZERO government oversight. this is so in the same municipalities where a single-family home owner, can't change a window without permits and inspections.

                        cowtowing to money while sticking it to the little guy? protecting money at the expense of life? i mean, we all KNOW that no developer ever cuts corners. shit, for that matter, no wall street whore in any sector would ever cut a corner to make the shareholders a penny.

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                        • TeeVee, I am surprised that you have found the suspect guilty already without all of the facts being presented yet. Why don't we settle back and let the REAL experts do their job before we start the construction of the gallows.

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                          • Originally posted by HalcyonDays View Post
                            While I give the FAA some credit for not giving in to social media pressure and wanting to wait for clear data...
                            What?! There is clear data. I am ONLY referring to the Lion Air crash. The investigation has determined that the MCAS system malfunctioned due to a single AoA sensor fault. The FAA has already issued an emergency AD and Boeing has redesigned the software 'enhancement' to remove certain vulnerabilities directly related to that crash. Those vulnerabilities still exist and will continue to exist until the new software 'enhancement' is in place. That vulnerability may have now caused an additional crash and massive loss of life.

                            Given all that, how can you argue with temporarily grounding the aircraft? It's logic vs bias.

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                            • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                              I agree with you. I think they should send them to Evan's house, have LH 744 flown in from Germany, and the two of them can take them apart in Evan's parents garage and let the world know what the problem is.
                              I think LH744’s input would be a useful second opinion. They’re going to Europe, I hear, so he’ll be on hand.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                                And this is the opinion of a high time ATP rated pilot, with 10000+ hours and multiple type ratings in jet aircraft. Right?
                                What has that got to do with anything? The Lion Air crew were ATP rated with a combined 11,000 hours. They didn't have a clue about the systems we are discussing. You didn't either. That's the point.

                                Honestly, tell us how you feel about being kept in the dark on systems that might interfere with your commands or destabilize your aircraft?

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