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  • Originally posted by Evan View Post
    we’ve
    Who?

    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

    Comment


    • Gabe, I have come to the conclusion that you and Evan just like to argue. I am too old and tired to banter back and forth with the two of you. You both win, you are both right and us old dinosaur pilot's have no idea what we are talking about. Now if I can just get this ADS B and the TOPMS to fit in my Cub, I guess I will survive.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Evan View Post
        So what's the criteria for the right seat? Intern? Personal assistant?

        By the time you get in a commercial cockpit, either seat, you are indeed a certified and tested pilot. You are also a human being. No matter the hours you have under your belt, you are always vulnerable to the imperfections of being human.

        One of those imperfections of being human is the inability to reliably concentrate and act on multiple dimensions of information under extreme stress and emergency. The mind narrows its focus in such situations, by nature, to what is most immediately threatening, by evolutionary design. Hours mean little here.

        Another of these imperfections is the mind's inability to maintain clear situational awareness and make clear, rational decisions under the same stressful and urgent circumstances. 30,000 hours will not make you immune to this. Especially when not a single hour of that experience involves this situation.

        That is the forest I see, and it is a dense one. There is no green pasture where experienced captains can be relied upon to confront every situation correctly just by merit of being an experienced pilot.

        Medical science knows this. The industry knows this. Boeing knows this. Procedures have been written for this reason. If those procedures are flawed, people die, planes get grounded and the costs run into the billions.

        Boeing got the procedure wrong for this. They apparently did not think it through very well. Like you, they placed blind confidence in seasoned airmanship and human performance despite a mealstrom of tasks and concentration factors and all that we've learned about the effects they have on human performance.

        Now tell me who wasn't seeing the forest for the trees.
        You! And what is a mealstrom? Is that like a tornado full of food?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
          Now if I can just get this ADS B and the TOPMS to fit in my Cub, I guess I will survive.
          Does your J3 even have an electrical system?

          --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
          --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
            Does your J3 even have an electrical system?
            No, and it never will. Just the way I like it. Very dangerous ��

            Comment


            • So for ADS-B out, you just periodically stick your head out the window and shout your lat/long, altitude, airspeed, and heading?
              Be alert! America needs more lerts.

              Eric Law

              Comment


              • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                You! And what is a mealstrom? Is that like a tornado full of food?
                'mealstrom' is a human error, a 'typo', which I made despite having been a typing professional for over 25000 hours. Do you see my point?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Evan View Post
                  'mealstrom' is a human error, a 'typo', which I made despite having been a typing professional for over 25000 hours. Do you see my point?
                  You will NEVER be happy. I recommend you sell everything you own, and move to the North woods of Canada and live off the land

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                    You will NEVER be happy. I recommend you sell everything you own, and move to the North woods of Canada and live off the land
                    I may just do that. Especially if there's no internet.

                    In the meantime, we are discussing the tragic deaths of 346 people which was not simply the result of pilot error or 'inherent risk'. As time passes, it has become increasing clear that this was preventable by both design and procedure.

                    Do have anything useful to add?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Evan View Post
                      I may just do that. Especially if there's no internet.

                      In the meantime, we are discussing the tragic deaths of 346 people which was not simply the result of pilot error or 'inherent risk'. As time passes, it has become increasing clear that this was preventable by both design and procedure.

                      Do have anything useful to add?
                      No, you seem to already have all the answers.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                        No, and it never will. Just the way I like it. Very dangerous ��
                        Does it mean no coffee maker either?!?!? NOOOOOooooooo!!!!


                        --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                        --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                        Comment


                        • Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg gave a very disturbing press conference today. It was disturbing because it shows an executive leadership either still in denial or willing to downplay responsibility as well as publicly evade transparency with regard to the facts.

                          It included this astonishing statement:
                          "When we design these systems, understand that these airplanes are flown in the hands of pilots," he said. He added that Boeing was unable to find any "technical slip or gap" in building its MCAS software.
                          The first part of that statement reveals the central flaw in Boeing's philosophy, which seems to provide the cool-headed, proficiency of pilots under immense stress as the only redundancy for certain critical system failures. We know that doesn't always work. The NSTB knows it, the FAA knows it and Boeing knows it. I can't even count how many times we've learned this hard lesson.
                          It also entirely ignores the fact that 'these airplanes are flown in the hands of pilots' that were never told about the system in the first place, let alone provided a procedure to deal with any erroneous behavior.
                          The second part is self-evidently disturbing. There was a HUGE slip involved in creating the MCAS system. That is, of course, why it is now being significantly modified.

                          He also claimed that the Ethiopian pilots did not "completely" follow the procedures that Boeing had outlined. This is disturbing because Boeing still hasn't seemed to acknowledge that those procedures were the result of flawed or limited thinking. Thus, he gives us no reason to hope the procedures will be rethought.

                          Overall, his statements seem to affirm my belief that the cancer at Boeing is rooted in its management culture which places the highest concern on preserving its near-term image to shareholders at the expense of safety and long-term outlook and that these tragic consequences have done nothing to purge that culture.

                          Boeing’s CEO on Monday said the safety systems on its 737 Max jets were properly designed, but he added that the airline is working to make them safer following two recent deadly crashes.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Evan View Post
                            Boeing got the procedure wrong for this. They apparently did not think it through very well. Like you, they placed blind confidence in seasoned airmanship and human performance despite a maelstrom of tasks and concentration factors and all that we've learned about the effects they have on human performance.

                            Now tell me who wasn't seeing the forest for the trees.
                            what procedure is that? oh! the one they didn't write because they didn't tell anyone about the grossly flawed system/design they snuck in to avoid a proper review by supposedly impartial FAA peeps?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Evan View Post
                              Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg gave a very disturbing press conference today. It was disturbing because it shows an executive leadership either still in denial or willing to downplay responsibility as well as publicly evade transparency with regard to the facts.

                              It included this astonishing statement:


                              The first part of that statement reveals the central flaw in Boeing's philosophy, which seems to provide the cool-headed, proficiency of pilots under immense stress as the only redundancy for certain critical system failures. We know that doesn't always work. The NSTB knows it, the FAA knows it and Boeing knows it. I can't even count how many times we've learned this hard lesson.
                              It also entirely ignores the fact that 'these airplanes are flown in the hands of pilots' that were never told about the system in the first place, let alone provided a procedure to deal with any erroneous behavior.
                              The second part is self-evidently disturbing. There was a HUGE slip involved in creating the MCAS system. That is, of course, why it is now being significantly modified.

                              He also claimed that the Ethiopian pilots did not "completely" follow the procedures that Boeing had outlined. This is disturbing because Boeing still hasn't seemed to acknowledge that those procedures were the result of flawed or limited thinking. Thus, he gives us no reason to hope the procedures will be rethought.

                              Overall, his statements seem to affirm my belief that the cancer at Boeing is rooted in its management culture which places the highest concern on preserving its near-term image to shareholders at the expense of safety and long-term outlook and that these tragic consequences have done nothing to purge that culture.

                              https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/29/inves...ing/index.html
                              I agree, but I suspect that he knows very well that they screwed up and this speech is PR and an attempt to economic and legal protection for the company and for the executives themselves. It is suicidal to say "our irresponsible negligence killed 300+". Boeing KNOW that they screwed up, they KNOW how to fix it, and the WILL (else the plane will not be certified again except perhaps in the USA).

                              --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                              --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                                I agree, but I suspect that he knows very well that they screwed up and this speech is PR and an attempt to economic and legal protection for the company and for the executives themselves. It is suicidal to say "our irresponsible negligence killed 300+". Boeing KNOW that they screw up, they KNOW how to fix it, and the WILL (else the plane will not be certified again except perhaps in the USA).
                                well, it won't happen, but boeing should offer the families of each passenger and crew the immediate payment of $2,000,000.00 each; reimburse each Lion Air and Ethiopian the purchase cost of the aircraft they lost; and offer to pay the cost of the investigations. instead, they will deny liability, drag all the parties through the mud for years, spend 10s of millions in attorneys' fees, then settle anyway. the real problem is not about the money. it is with the ultimate denial of liability. at least in criminal proceedings a judge controls whether a plea bargain is accepted. in civil court, the judge has no control if the parties settle.

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