Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Helicopter crashes onto roof of Manhattan building in poor weather.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Evan
    replied
    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
    How would that have made a difference?

    I seem to remember a top-notch general aviation equipped with a top-notch digital panel including top-notch GPS with top-notch moving map crashing int a building in a top-notch VFR day. Was it a baseball player?

    Now you have a VFR pilot lost in IMC probably struggling to keep blue over brown... How would a GPS with moving map have made a difference?
    Well, to begin with, I'm talking once again about satety through redundancy. We have some safety already in that we restrict VFR pilots from going into IMC, which means all they really need is a clean windscreen. But, when that fails, because pilots miscalculate or break rules, we need something else. Instruments are not the best defense if the pilot is not well-trained on them. However, a moving map GPS, such as the one on my iPhone, is entirely intuitive. Where am I? Oh, there I am, and this is the direction I'm moving in, and there's the obstructions I need to avoid. Secondly, even for IMC-rated pilots, in an enviroment like Manhattan, where safe flight corridors are very narrow and tall buildings are in direct proximity, GPS provides greater positional accuracy than traditional instruments and doesn't rely on precise pilot calculations. Or am I wrong about that?

    Thirdly, and this somewhat mirrors my argument on search and rescue, the cost-barrier is relatively minimal and if it saves some lives, is well-justified.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gabriel
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    I see your point that this helicopter might not have had GPS. It was apparently N200BK, a 2000-build AW109E Power. The newer ones come with integrated, moving map GPS but I don't think a 2000 build would have.
    So we're talking about a helicopter with a current market value of $1M to $1.5M and a high operating cost servicing VIP transport in some of the most dangerous airspace in the country. And we're talking about around $5000 for a vital panel-mount nav upgrade. Yes, I'm not qualified in any way to say this, but it seems pretty unlikely that GPS wouldn't have creeped into this thing by now.

    Here are a couple 2000-builds I found doing a very quick search. Note the listed avionics include aftermarket GPS.

    https://www.avbuyer.com/aircraft/hel...e-power/352067
    https://www.avbuyer.com/aircraft/hel...e-power/350992

    Now, IMHO, regardless of what happened here, I think the FAA should require ALL general aviation aircraft operating in crowded, urban airspace to have some form of reliable GPS moving-map navigation installed. Why? To help prevent them from getting lost and flying into tall buildings. What about the little guy who can't afford a $5000 GPS unit? I doubt he has any reason to fly in that airspace, but if he does, it must be pay-to-play.
    How would that have made a difference?

    I seem to remember a top-notch general aviation equipped with a top-notch digital panel including top-notch GPS with top-notch moving map crashing int a building in a top-notch VFR day. Was it a baseball player?

    Now you have a VFR pilot lost in IMC probably struggling to keep blue over brown... How would a GPS with moving map have made a difference?

    Leave a comment:


  • Gabriel
    replied
    Originally posted by 3WE View Post
    When did you try to make a point...
    When I said "I bet that lack of means to know where he was was not the reason why he didn't know where he was.".

    ... and when did I argue against it?
    I don't know. Where did I say you did? I was taking what you said to reinforce my point.

    Leave a comment:


  • ATLcrew
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    I see your point that this helicopter might not have had GPS. It was apparently N200BK, a 2000-build AW109E Power. The newer ones come with integrated, moving map GPS but I don't think a 2000 build would have.
    So we're talking about a helicopter with a current market value of $1M to $1.5M and a high operating cost servicing VIP transport in some of the most dangerous airspace in the country. And we're talking about around $5000 for a vital panel-mount nav upgrade. Yes, I'm not qualified in any way to say this, but it seems pretty unlikely that GPS wouldn't have creeped into this thing by now.

    Here are a couple 2000-builds I found doing a very quick search. Note the listed avionics include aftermarket GPS.

    https://www.avbuyer.com/aircraft/hel...e-power/352067
    https://www.avbuyer.com/aircraft/hel...e-power/350992

    Now, IMHO, regardless of what happened here, I think the FAA should require ALL general aviation aircraft operating in crowded, urban airspace to have some form of reliable GPS moving-map navigation installed. Why? To help prevent them from getting lost and flying into tall buildings. What about the little guy who can't afford a $5000 GPS unit? I doubt he has any reason to fly in that airspace, but if he does, it must be pay-to-play.
    Noted, thanks.

    Leave a comment:


  • 3WE
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    ***I think the FAA should require ALL general aviation aircraft operating in crowded, urban airspace to have some form of reliable GPS moving-map navigation installed. Why? To help prevent them from getting lost and flying into tall buildings. What about the little guy who can't afford a $5000 GPS unit? I doubt he has any reason to fly in that airspace, but if he does, it must be pay-to-play.
    Before or after we get the side-sonar destroyer fleets with required recurrent training?

    Leave a comment:


  • Evan
    replied
    Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post
    Door might not be missing, but other stuff is. I don't think there are any TSO'd panel mounts for much under $5,000 unless things have changed drastically.
    I see your point that this helicopter might not have had GPS. It was apparently N200BK, a 2000-build AW109E Power. The newer ones come with integrated, moving map GPS but I don't think a 2000 build would have.
    So we're talking about a helicopter with a current market value of $1M to $1.5M and a high operating cost servicing VIP transport in some of the most dangerous airspace in the country. And we're talking about around $5000 for a vital panel-mount nav upgrade. Yes, I'm not qualified in any way to say this, but it seems pretty unlikely that GPS wouldn't have creeped into this thing by now.

    Here are a couple 2000-builds I found doing a very quick search. Note the listed avionics include aftermarket GPS.

    https://www.avbuyer.com/aircraft/hel...e-power/352067
    https://www.avbuyer.com/aircraft/hel...e-power/350992

    Now, IMHO, regardless of what happened here, I think the FAA should require ALL general aviation aircraft operating in crowded, urban airspace to have some form of reliable GPS moving-map navigation installed. Why? To help prevent them from getting lost and flying into tall buildings. What about the little guy who can't afford a $5000 GPS unit? I doubt he has any reason to fly in that airspace, but if he does, it must be pay-to-play.

    Leave a comment:


  • ATLcrew
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    Ok, but in the civilized world, aka Manhattan, we generally don't see rusty old skyhawks flying around with their doors missing. I think you can install a panel mount unit for less than the price of a basic android phone. Speaking of which...
    Door might not be missing, but other stuff is. I don't think there are any TSO'd panel mounts for much under $5,000 unless things have changed drastically.

    Leave a comment:


  • 3WE
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    rusty old skyhawks
    A very inaccurate view.

    I DO have SOME expertise in operating older 172s from smaller FBOs.

    IFR instrumentation and navigational stuff are questionable.

    The engine is going to have some quirks...the trim may be a bit off, and the windscreen will probably be leaky and maybe a bit faded and crazed.

    Dashboard-faded and cracked. Seats- covered with that new lambs-wool/whatever stuff. Carpet worn.

    You probably have a VOR receiver that works.

    Rust? No- very little rust except for the brake rotors (which you will find on newer 172-S models, too)

    Have you been in a number of 172's in Manhattan? Do you put the trim in the takeoff position before takeoff or cheat one way or another?

    Leave a comment:


  • 3WE
    replied
    I'll give you this:

    Originally posted by Evan (modified) View Post
    In the YouTube world, we generally see planes with Go-Pros plastered all over, and a fancy tablet computer with moving map navigation rigged to the yoke...you can install a panel mount unit and all of those Go-Pros for less than the price of a basic android phone. Speaking of which...

    Leave a comment:


  • Evan
    replied
    Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post
    It all depends, and I don't know that I agree that "most" GA aircraft have GPS units added. There is an awful lot of junk flying out there that's barely VFR-legal, let alone anything beyond that.
    Ok, but in the civilized world, aka Manhattan, we generally don't see rusty old skyhawks flying around with their doors missing. I think you can install a panel mount unit for less than the price of a basic android phone. Speaking of which...

    Leave a comment:


  • 3WE
    replied
    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
    That was my point.
    When did you try to make a point and when did I argue against it?

    Leave a comment:


  • Gabriel
    replied
    Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post
    It all depends, and I don't know that I agree that "most" GA aircraft have GPS units added. There is an awful lot of junk flying out there that's barely VFR-legal, let alone anything beyond that.
    And don't forget the "below that" part.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gabriel
    replied
    Originally posted by 3WE View Post
    I see:

    -Attitude indicator
    -VOR/ILS
    -HSI
    -Radio Tuner

    I know that millennials aren't as good as Bobby or ITS at working that ancient stuff, but I repeat, slow down, climb, communicate, navigate, aviate...

    Could that have potentially been a solution?

    Or Google maps on a smartphone?
    And a transponder. Call ATC, say I am lost and need vectors. Use the attitude indicator, airspeed indicator, altimeter and the compass in the HSI to follow the vectors.

    But that (or working with a GPS map) can be difficult when you are a VFR pilot in IMC suffering spatial disorientation and using 120% of your brain's bandwidth just to try to keep blue over brown.

    That was my point.

    Leave a comment:


  • ATLcrew
    replied
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    Sure, as delivered, but I would expect a machine that expensive operated out of NYC to have a few modern upgrades. How expensive/difficult it it to throw an aftermarket nav unit in there? I think most older GA aircraft have one pasted in somewhere by now.
    I'm leaning towards agreeing with Gabriel. There's a big a missing piece.
    It all depends, and I don't know that I agree that "most" GA aircraft have GPS units added. There is an awful lot of junk flying out there that's barely VFR-legal, let alone anything beyond that.

    Leave a comment:


  • Evan
    replied
    Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post
    A109s have been around a while now, some have pretty ancient cockpits.

    [ATTACH=CONFIG]25812[/ATTACH]
    Sure, as delivered, but I would expect a machine that expensive operated out of NYC to have a few modern upgrades. How expensive/difficult it it to throw an aftermarket nav unit in there? I think most older GA aircraft have one pasted in somewhere by now.
    I'm leaning towards agreeing with Gabriel. There's a big a missing piece.

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X