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Helicopter crashes onto roof of Manhattan building in poor weather.

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Evan View Post
    I think an AW109 operating out of Manhattan probably has at least an aftermarket GPS nav thingy if not a factory display.
    A109s have been around a while now, some have pretty ancient cockpits.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post
      ***pretty ancient cockpits.***
      I see:

      -Attitude indicator
      -VOR/ILS
      -HSI
      -Radio Tuner

      I know that millennials aren't as good as Bobby or ITS at working that ancient stuff, but I repeat, slow down, climb, communicate, navigate, aviate...

      Could that have potentially been a solution?

      Or Google maps on a smartphone?
      Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post
        A109s have been around a while now, some have pretty ancient cockpits.

        [ATTACH=CONFIG]25812[/ATTACH]
        Sure, as delivered, but I would expect a machine that expensive operated out of NYC to have a few modern upgrades. How expensive/difficult it it to throw an aftermarket nav unit in there? I think most older GA aircraft have one pasted in somewhere by now.
        I'm leaning towards agreeing with Gabriel. There's a big a missing piece.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Evan View Post
          Sure, as delivered, but I would expect a machine that expensive operated out of NYC to have a few modern upgrades. How expensive/difficult it it to throw an aftermarket nav unit in there? I think most older GA aircraft have one pasted in somewhere by now.
          I'm leaning towards agreeing with Gabriel. There's a big a missing piece.
          It all depends, and I don't know that I agree that "most" GA aircraft have GPS units added. There is an awful lot of junk flying out there that's barely VFR-legal, let alone anything beyond that.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by 3WE View Post
            I see:

            -Attitude indicator
            -VOR/ILS
            -HSI
            -Radio Tuner

            I know that millennials aren't as good as Bobby or ITS at working that ancient stuff, but I repeat, slow down, climb, communicate, navigate, aviate...

            Could that have potentially been a solution?

            Or Google maps on a smartphone?
            And a transponder. Call ATC, say I am lost and need vectors. Use the attitude indicator, airspeed indicator, altimeter and the compass in the HSI to follow the vectors.

            But that (or working with a GPS map) can be difficult when you are a VFR pilot in IMC suffering spatial disorientation and using 120% of your brain's bandwidth just to try to keep blue over brown.

            That was my point.

            --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
            --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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            • #36
              Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post
              It all depends, and I don't know that I agree that "most" GA aircraft have GPS units added. There is an awful lot of junk flying out there that's barely VFR-legal, let alone anything beyond that.
              And don't forget the "below that" part.

              --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
              --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                That was my point.
                When did you try to make a point and when did I argue against it?
                Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post
                  It all depends, and I don't know that I agree that "most" GA aircraft have GPS units added. There is an awful lot of junk flying out there that's barely VFR-legal, let alone anything beyond that.
                  Ok, but in the civilized world, aka Manhattan, we generally don't see rusty old skyhawks flying around with their doors missing. I think you can install a panel mount unit for less than the price of a basic android phone. Speaking of which...

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                  • #39
                    I'll give you this:

                    Originally posted by Evan (modified) View Post
                    In the YouTube world, we generally see planes with Go-Pros plastered all over, and a fancy tablet computer with moving map navigation rigged to the yoke...you can install a panel mount unit and all of those Go-Pros for less than the price of a basic android phone. Speaking of which...
                    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Evan View Post
                      rusty old skyhawks
                      A very inaccurate view.

                      I DO have SOME expertise in operating older 172s from smaller FBOs.

                      IFR instrumentation and navigational stuff are questionable.

                      The engine is going to have some quirks...the trim may be a bit off, and the windscreen will probably be leaky and maybe a bit faded and crazed.

                      Dashboard-faded and cracked. Seats- covered with that new lambs-wool/whatever stuff. Carpet worn.

                      You probably have a VOR receiver that works.

                      Rust? No- very little rust except for the brake rotors (which you will find on newer 172-S models, too)

                      Have you been in a number of 172's in Manhattan? Do you put the trim in the takeoff position before takeoff or cheat one way or another?
                      Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Evan View Post
                        Ok, but in the civilized world, aka Manhattan, we generally don't see rusty old skyhawks flying around with their doors missing. I think you can install a panel mount unit for less than the price of a basic android phone. Speaking of which...
                        Door might not be missing, but other stuff is. I don't think there are any TSO'd panel mounts for much under $5,000 unless things have changed drastically.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by ATLcrew View Post
                          Door might not be missing, but other stuff is. I don't think there are any TSO'd panel mounts for much under $5,000 unless things have changed drastically.
                          I see your point that this helicopter might not have had GPS. It was apparently N200BK, a 2000-build AW109E Power. The newer ones come with integrated, moving map GPS but I don't think a 2000 build would have.
                          So we're talking about a helicopter with a current market value of $1M to $1.5M and a high operating cost servicing VIP transport in some of the most dangerous airspace in the country. And we're talking about around $5000 for a vital panel-mount nav upgrade. Yes, I'm not qualified in any way to say this, but it seems pretty unlikely that GPS wouldn't have creeped into this thing by now.

                          Here are a couple 2000-builds I found doing a very quick search. Note the listed avionics include aftermarket GPS.

                          https://www.avbuyer.com/aircraft/hel...e-power/352067
                          https://www.avbuyer.com/aircraft/hel...e-power/350992

                          Now, IMHO, regardless of what happened here, I think the FAA should require ALL general aviation aircraft operating in crowded, urban airspace to have some form of reliable GPS moving-map navigation installed. Why? To help prevent them from getting lost and flying into tall buildings. What about the little guy who can't afford a $5000 GPS unit? I doubt he has any reason to fly in that airspace, but if he does, it must be pay-to-play.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Evan View Post
                            ***I think the FAA should require ALL general aviation aircraft operating in crowded, urban airspace to have some form of reliable GPS moving-map navigation installed. Why? To help prevent them from getting lost and flying into tall buildings. What about the little guy who can't afford a $5000 GPS unit? I doubt he has any reason to fly in that airspace, but if he does, it must be pay-to-play.
                            Before or after we get the side-sonar destroyer fleets with required recurrent training?
                            Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Evan View Post
                              I see your point that this helicopter might not have had GPS. It was apparently N200BK, a 2000-build AW109E Power. The newer ones come with integrated, moving map GPS but I don't think a 2000 build would have.
                              So we're talking about a helicopter with a current market value of $1M to $1.5M and a high operating cost servicing VIP transport in some of the most dangerous airspace in the country. And we're talking about around $5000 for a vital panel-mount nav upgrade. Yes, I'm not qualified in any way to say this, but it seems pretty unlikely that GPS wouldn't have creeped into this thing by now.

                              Here are a couple 2000-builds I found doing a very quick search. Note the listed avionics include aftermarket GPS.

                              https://www.avbuyer.com/aircraft/hel...e-power/352067
                              https://www.avbuyer.com/aircraft/hel...e-power/350992

                              Now, IMHO, regardless of what happened here, I think the FAA should require ALL general aviation aircraft operating in crowded, urban airspace to have some form of reliable GPS moving-map navigation installed. Why? To help prevent them from getting lost and flying into tall buildings. What about the little guy who can't afford a $5000 GPS unit? I doubt he has any reason to fly in that airspace, but if he does, it must be pay-to-play.
                              Noted, thanks.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                                When did you try to make a point...
                                When I said "I bet that lack of means to know where he was was not the reason why he didn't know where he was.".

                                ... and when did I argue against it?
                                I don't know. Where did I say you did? I was taking what you said to reinforce my point.

                                --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                                --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                                Comment

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