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  • China's stealth fighter?

    http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010...ealth-fighter/

    They could be the products of a Chinese government misinformation campaign. They could be clever Photoshop jobs by Chinese aviation fanboys. Or they could be the real thing: the first hard evidence of the long-rumored Chengdu J-20, China’s first stealth-fighter prototype.

    The above photo and several others surfaced over the Christmas weekend on Chinese Internet forums, catching the eye of Aviation Week fighter guru Bill Sweetman. Sweetman, a noted skeptic in the sometimes enthusiastic world of fast-jet journalism, stressed that the pics might be fakes. Fantastical Photoshop art is a hallmark of Chinese military-themed Websites. See the giant, flying “heli-carrier,” or the submarine flattop — both creations of over-excited Chinese Photoshoppers.

    But there are hints that the J-20 photos are for real — and that much clearer shots exist, somewhere. “Rumor has it that better shots have put in transient appearances on Chinese Websites before being zapped by the censor,” Sweetman wrote. That those rumored photos were yanked is itself perhaps proof that Beijing really does have a new fighter. “In China’s military fan Web culture, the rapid intervention of the censors is always a boost for the credibility of the poster,” aviation journalist Rick Fisher told Sweetman.

    Most convincingly, the airplane depicted in the snapshots apparently has many of the right characteristics for a fifth-generation stealth-fighter prototype: a chiseled front-section, triangular wings, all-moving tailplanes. In fact, the supposed J-20 seems to combine the front fuselage of the U.S. Air Force’s F-22 with the back half of Russia’s T-50 stealth prototype, which appeared a little less than a year ago.


    If it’s real — and that’s a big if — the J-20’s appearance could signal a big step forward for the Chinese air force, which to date relies mostly on airplanes bought from Russia or reverse-engineered from Russian or Israeli designs. Panicky Western air-power advocates, who a year ago claimed America would be “less safe” if the Pentagon pressed forward with plans to end production of the F-22 stealth fighter at 187 copies, might just announce the end of America’s 50-year dominance of the skies. Alarmists made similar claims when the Russia’s new T-50 fighter first flew, despite that plane’s many non-stealthy attributes and dubious production prospects.

    The Pentagon hasn’t had a chance to comment on the J-20 photos, but is likely to remain sanguine. In deliberations over the F-22, Secretary of Defense Robert Gates acknowledged that the Chinese were working on a stealth fighter, but insisted the Communist country would have “no fifth-generation aircraft by 2020,” while the U.S. would have more than a thousand F-22s and F-35s. In the year-and-a-half since Gates made that claim, the Pentagon has delayed F-35 production and China has apparently accelerated its own stealth development — alleged J-20 photos aside — but the spirit of Gates’ assertion remains valid.

    Even if the photos are real and the J-20 exists as more than blueprints, there’s probably no cause for alarm. The U.S. flew its first stealth prototypes — the YF-22 and rival YF-23 — in 1990; the J-20 hasn’t even flown yet. It took 15 years for the F-22 to enter front-line service; considering China’s quality-control problems with high technology, it could take a decade or more for the J-20 to appear in numbers that make any difference in the Pacific balance of power. Gates might have been slightly off in his assessment of the Chinese air force, but probably not by much.

    And that’s all assuming Beijing’s Christmas stealth-fighter surprise isn’t all just Photoshop magic. With so little good information on military hardware coming out of China, fighter fakery is a real prospect. In which case, we’ll keep waiting for China’s first stealth fighter to make its true debut.
    “The only time you have too much fuel is when you’re on fire.”

    Erwin


  • #2
    Serenely not good news for USA! China is training how to shot down F-22's and now they are working on some thing better then F-22 but now surprise there since O administration is giving away US secrets to China for free. I think in a long run China will be very dangerous and all this because the world supports them by selling their debt to china! Not a good thing.

    More pictures

    http://www.altair.com.pl/start-5566 writing is in Polish but pictures are interesting

    Comment


    • #3
      If these are fakes they are very well done fakes indeed. On the subject raised of an submarine aircraft carrier that really isnt a bad idea if you can get round the obstacles. Gives them the edge on stealth over certain enemies. Problem would be financing such an expensive project. Anyways back on subject of the fighter. Looking at it it looks like a cheap version of the F22.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by justLOT787 View Post
        Serenely not good news for USA! China is training how to shot down F-22's and now they are working on some thing better then F-22 but now surprise there since O administration is giving away US secrets to China for free. I think in a long run China will be very dangerous and all this because the world supports them by selling their debt to china! Not a good thing.

        More pictures

        http://www.altair.com.pl/start-5566 writing is in Polish but pictures are interesting
        You are deluded if you believe any of the points you have written above.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by SYDCBRWOD View Post

          Originally posted by justLOT787 View Post
          Serenely not good news for USA! China is training how to shot down F-22's and now they are working on some thing better then F-22 but now surprise there since O administration is giving away US secrets to China for free. I think in a long run China will be very dangerous and all this because the world supports them by selling their debt to china! Not a good thing. (...)
          You are deluded if you believe any of the points you have written above.
          Amen

          Comment


          • #6
            Some more pictures.





            “The only time you have too much fuel is when you’re on fire.”

            Erwin

            Comment


            • #7
              That's the truth and I'm sticking to it. China is becoming the most powerful country because US and other countries debt is sky rocketing and china is buying it basally buying pieces of countries. And Chinese are able to advance in the technology so much because US is selling/giving away their top of the line technology to China and you have all that going on thanks to Democrats, just my belief like it or not is how I see things and like most of you I don’t need graphs and charts to be convinced live the real life and you will see that China is becoming very powerful.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by justLOT787 View Post
                That's the truth and I'm sticking to it. China is becoming the most powerful country because US and other countries debt is sky rocketing and china is buying it basally buying pieces of countries. And Chinese are able to advance in the technology so much because US is selling/giving away their top of the line technology to China and you have all that going on thanks to Democrats, just my belief like it or not is how I see things and like most of you I don’t need graphs and charts to be convinced live the real life and you will see that China is becoming very powerful.
                China is powerful, and they have every right to allocate their resources towards upgrading their military, if they wish. However, I think you may overlook the fact that the Chinese have no interest in "conquering" the US, as it were. They depend very much on a stable and prosperous US, not least to preserve the investments they have made by buying so many US Government bonds. More importantly, their main concern is to preserve their huge export markets, which underpin the Chinese economy, so they need stable destinations in which to sell their goods worldwide. And the real reason for this is that the Chinese leadership fears, above all else, domestic social chaos and instability, and so their huge workforce needs to be employed and fed.

                Sure, the Chinese will make investments in the US and elsewhere. This is a function of the globalized and integrated world in which we now live. The US and other countries have been doing this for decades and centuries, and the US itself owns many "pieces of countries", if you add it all up. In any case, Chinese investment in the US improves cross-cultural understanding, promotes small business creation and innovation and above all helps American employment prospects. Not forgetting also, the US depends vitally on China for exports of many of its own manufactured products and a vast range of services. There will be much posturing and arguing between the two countries which will dominate the media, but in reality the two countries will remain at peace and depend on each other enormously.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by justLOT787 View Post
                  That's the truth and I'm sticking to it. China is becoming the most powerful country because US and other countries debt is sky rocketing and china is buying it basally buying pieces of countries. And Chinese are able to advance in the technology so much because US is selling/giving away their top of the line technology to China and you have all that going on thanks to Democrats, just my belief like it or not is how I see things and like most of you I don’t need graphs and charts to be convinced live the real life and you will see that China is becoming very powerful.
                  Because of the Democrats??? Well, young man, let me quote an ancient Vulcan proverb to you: "Only Nixon could go to China." *lol...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Don't snigger too much about that giant sleeping panda. They have the money and they own the US, lock, stock and barrel. Bought at a "Blue Light" special courtesy of Sam Walton and Wal-Mort.

                    Do you think they are worried? Who is going to do anything? Secrets? Look at Toshiba and the way they sold the technology to Korea and then to the Soviet block with the submarine debacle.

                    Don't forget they now have the SAAB 9-5 too.

                    Oh! Sweet little SAAB, yeah, the first plane they rolled off the assembly line of Trolhattan was a Junkers bomber.

                    Hell, the money behind getting SAAB up and running was from Fokker.

                    This is from a book by SAAB on their history; my point being that the $$ is much stronger than nationalism in so many cases. I doubt those pictures are accurate but to think they have nothing behind them in terms of military advancement is naive.
                    Live, from a grassy knoll somewhere near you.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by guamainiac View Post
                      Don't snigger too much about that giant sleeping panda. but to think they have nothing behind them in terms of military advancement is naive.
                      Not underestimating the country at all. BUT in terms of 5th gen technology I'd imagine the learning curve is significantly steeper than producing an F22 beater first go. Hence my comments to LOT.

                      The J-10 is still not powered by an indigenous engine - they still have not mastered the technology or the materials to effectively copy russian engine designs. (Russian factories have recently received large orders for figter engines).

                      As a first 'stealth' (hate that word) design, it looks to be an impressive effort, but from some of the initial pronouncements you'd think it was a Klingon Bird of Prey complete with cloaking technology. The US is up to the 4th generation of LO technology and is working on 6th gen platforms (follow on from 5th gen).

                      I have absolutely no doubt that in years to come the one true superpower will perhaps be China, but I'm also thinking that time won't come for 30-50 years yet.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by justLOT787 View Post
                        That's the truth and I'm sticking to it.
                        Please provide independently verified test data including information on radar performance, RCS, datalinks, kinematic performance and LO characteristic test data.

                        If you cannot do this, then your original post is not "the truth", merely an opinion based on a few fuzzy photo's. I have posted on another defence related forum my take on the new aircraft based on what I can see, I think my comment was:

                        "It's a big bugger isn't it?"

                        And even that was a guess - the people in the photo I commented on standing next to the plane could have been midgets and therefore I may have been quite incorrect.

                        How in the world people can make pronouncements on the effectiveness of the RCS reductions, or kinematic performance of the airframe is beyond me (or other far better qualified people - defence pilots, engineers and designers). But, you go ahead - fill ya boots!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          More and more pictures are becoming available. She won't win a beauty award that's for sure!


                          “The only time you have too much fuel is when you’re on fire.”

                          Erwin

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            No technology? Overwhelm the enemy with sheer numbers.

                            These are the guys that wrote "The Art of War".
                            Live, from a grassy knoll somewhere near you.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              To turn again to the more technical aspects...

                              In the big picture of the ErwinS's latest upload, it looks to me that the engine tailpipes are conventional. No fancy stuff like thrust vectoring or anything...

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