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  • No more F-22's-why???...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wijfO...re=context-gfa

    I can't for the life of me figure out why this program has ended so soon. As far as the Joint Strike Fighter goes, AFIK, funding for it has become a major political issue-so why not continue to support the F-22 program??

  • #2
    Originally posted by UALdave View Post
    (...) I can't for the life of me figure out why this program has ended so soon.
    Easy answer: the F-22 is way too expensive and there is not really any need for it in today's conflicts.

    Originally posted by UALdave View Post
    As far as the Joint Strike Fighter goes, AFIK, funding for it has become a major political issue-so why not continue to support the F-22 program?(...)
    But the F-35 has a much bigger export potential and will be a lot cheaper in the long run.

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    • #3
      Indeed the F-22 is way to expensive and the EF2000 and Su-30MKI are flying circles around them

      But F-22 is still way beter than the crappy JSF.
      “The only time you have too much fuel is when you’re on fire.”

      Erwin

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      • #4
        I would say that the F-35 was supposed to be way more cheaper, but if you compare the last Lot F-22 and the estimates for F-35, the difference has become very small, especially considering that F-22 is bigger, has 2 engines and that the production never reached the level of the original planed F-35 production. (economy of scale)

        In the end F-22 was killed of to free money for the cheaper F-35, which meant the US Armed Forces are more or less down to F-35 or nothing.
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        • #5
          F35.......Jack of all trades !

          ......just a shame that it's a master of none ?
          If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

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          • #6
            Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
            F35.......Jack of all trades !

            ......just a shame that it's a master of none ?
            And that's why it's crap. They want to do everything with one airframe.
            And the costs are unbelieveable.....
            “The only time you have too much fuel is when you’re on fire.”

            Erwin

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            • #7
              Originally posted by ErwinS View Post
              And that's why it's crap. They want to do everything with one airframe.
              And the costs are unbelieveable.....
              Agreed, but what about the safety issues with the F-22? I was talking to my Dad last night, and he mentioned oxygen issues with the F-22. Apparently there was at least one pilot who blacked out during flight and a crash. I don't know if that issue was ever fixed, because it sounds pretty serious.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by UALdave View Post
                Agreed, but what about the safety issues with the F-22? I was talking to my Dad last night, and he mentioned oxygen issues with the F-22. Apparently there was at least one pilot who blacked out during flight and a crash. I don't know if that issue was ever fixed, because it sounds pretty serious.
                The Ox problem should be fixed. They are modifying all F-22's to prevent such a failure once again.

                http://www.stripes.com/news/air-forc...crash-1.172123
                “The only time you have too much fuel is when you’re on fire.”

                Erwin

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                • #9
                  Firstly - no, the OBOGS system has not been sorted and it is still a mystery why there are issues. Pilots are wearing commercial pulse oximeters to keep tabs on things. The 'fix' is to make an emergency oxygen supply easier to access. A number of pilots have refused to fly the airframe until it has been fixed. Particularly necessary in this aircraft as it apparently flies well over 50,000 feet regularly.

                  Two other points to mention, firstly, yes the price of the Low Rate Initial Production F-35's is high - given that they are being built in very small numbers that is inevitable. When the production line starts cranking the average price per airframe will be well lower than F-22, and lower than other 4++ gen machines such as Eurofighter - probably similar to Grippen NG.

                  F-22 is a wonderful aircraft designed in the 80's, developed in the 90's. It has systems architecture dating from that time. F-35's systems will make the F-22's systems (bespoke systems) look like a Sopwith Camel by comparison. Unquestionably, the F-22 is kinematically a superior machine, but in terms of systems integration the F-35 runs rings around it. Don't be fooled by the comparitively low speed and other comparisons that are made. F-35 is a game changer.

                  The F-22 was probably the aircraft (along with the B-2) that won the cold war for the west. The soviets bankrupted themselves trying to keep up with the technologically superior west. The F-22's threat is not there now (although the PAK-FA and Chinese designs are coming), so they can be capped and slowly retired (which is a good thing - the F-22's were built in a variety of batches and the systems are different from batch to batch. That and the fact that everything from the circuitry to the software is unique to each batch means maintaining or upgrading them is an expensive nightmare). By the time the Chinese and Russians have fielded (not just development prototypes in the air) their 5th gen aircraft in significant numbers, the US will have fielded the F-22's successor. Until then the far cheaper to buy, operate and upgrade F-35 can hold the fort.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ErwinS View Post
                    Indeed the F-22 is way to expensive and the EF2000 and Su-30MKI are flying circles around them

                    But F-22 is still way beter than the crappy JSF.
                    Only in your fantasies.

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                    • #11
                      Sounds like a LM marketing brochure. So far F-35 has shown many problems, the software integration is still far away from being a game changer and the production costs are steadily rising with the yearly production numbers steadily shrinking in response. (which means another increase in costs per airframe)

                      F-22 never enjoyed a production run much over the LRIP F-35, because it went down from around 900, 640, to 320 to 180 airframes. Yet, the last F-22s built were about only 10-15% more expensive than the estimated airframe costs for the first F-35 production batch. That is not looking good, when the F-35 numbers will be slashed.
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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by seahawk View Post
                        Yet, the last F-22s built were about only 10-15% more expensive than the estimated airframe costs for the first F-35 production batch. That is not looking good, when the F-35 numbers will be slashed.
                        What part of LOW RATE Initial Production confounds you with the F-35? I can guarantee that the initial batches of virtually any airframe will cost a whole lot more (particularly when you are producing is such tiny numbers initially) than later batches when the bugs are ironed out of the airframe and the production process. To me the real surprise is that teh F-35 is still cheaper than the last full production batches of the F-22.

                        Numbers of the F-35 ordered will not be cut to the same degree as the F-22. The F-22 was pretty much an add-on capability - it enhanced the existing stock of F-15's F16's etc. The F-35 is to REPLACE great swathes of the inventory in the US and 9 other countries. Sure, history has shown that as airframes get more expensive and capable that the number acquired reduce (The US fighter force numbered in the thousands post WWII, but successive purchases have been less and less). I'm predicting that F-35 production will not drop anywhere near the same as the F-22.

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                        • #13
                          Well, there will be a piece on 60 Minutes this Sunday on the oxygen problems with the F-22. Should be interesting.

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                          • #14
                            Well, there are 180+ of them in service, and yet no other country has fully developed a 5-gen fighter to match it. If you look at Russia, they only have about twenty Su-35s of all versions and those are not 5-gen, but 4+/4++. Though one day the F-15s and F-16s will have to be retired, so I guess LM should keep the tooling for the F-22C (C is for Cheap)

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                            • #15
                              An interesting side by side comparison of the two...and an EF2000 Typhoon rundown for good measure. By the way, the USAF Chief of Staff who has flown the entire USAF inventory including the F22 and F35 described the Typhoon quite simply as .... the best !!



                              Role: air superiority fighter
                              Builder: Lockheed Martin / Boeing
                              Variants: YF-22A, F/A-22A
                              Operators: USAF

                              The
                              F-22 Raptor is the world's first stealth air-to-air fighter. It is developed to replace the F-15C in the air superiority role. The F-22 is the first production aircraft with the ability to super cruise – flying at supersonic speeds without the use of afterburners.

                              The plane's builder Lockheed Martin Corp., has built several F-22s for test purposes. Most are at Edwards Air Force Base, Calif., undergoing a series of tests. Last year the pentagon approved production plans for an initial batch of 13 production aircraft.

                              Recently the designation for the Raptor was changed to F/A-22 to indicate the possible air-to-ground role of the aircraft. JDAM bombs can be carried in the internal weapon bay, while the optional external pylons offer a more flexible station for air-to-ground armament.

                              Specifications:
                              Powerplant: two Pratt & Whitney F119-P-100 turbofan each rated at 155.69 kN (35,000 lb st) with afterburning

                              Dimensions: length 18.92m (62 ft 1 in); height 5.00m (16 ft 5 in); wing span 13.56m (44ft 6 in)

                              Weights: empty more than 13.608 kg (30,000 lb); Max Take-Off Weight 26.308 kg (58,000 lb)

                              Performance: max level speed at optimum altitude Mach 1.58 in supercruise and at 30,000 ft (9145m) Mach 1.7 in afterburning mode; service ceiling more than 15,240m (50,000 ft); g limit +7.9

                              Armament: one 20mm M61A2 Vulcan six-barrel gun with 480 rounds; 2 AIM-9X Sidewinder IR-guided missiles in internal side bays. Up to 6 AIM-120C or 4 AIM-120A AMRAAM missiles in internal fuselage weapon bays or 2 AIM-120C AMRAAMs and 2 GBU-32 JDAM bombs or 2 GBU-30 JDAM bombs. Up to four
                              fuel tanks and up to 8 missiles can be carried on optional external hardpoints. (Reportedly there are plans for a F/A-22C with larger weapon bays capable or carrying a larger selection of Air-to-Ground weapons and weapons such as the AGM-88 HARM).
                              -------------------------------------------

                              F-35 Joint Strike Fighter

                              Role: multi-role strike fighter
                              Builder: Lockheed Martin
                              Variants: F-35A, F-35B, F-35C
                              Operators: USAF, US Navy, US Marine Corps, Royal Navy/Royal Air Force (UK), (Netherlands, Turkey, Italy, Israel, Australia)

                              The F-35 will be the result from the Joint Strike Fighter program. The aim of the program is to develop an affordable next generation stealth strike aircraft for the US Air Force, US Navy, US Marine Corps and the United Kingdom as well as other US allies. The program enables various forms of participation for the candidate export countries, ranging from 'informed partner' to 'major participant'. Boeing and Lockheed Martin were the two competitors in the Concept Development Phase (CDP). The Boeing Corp. designed and built the X-32 prototype and the Lockheed Martin team developed the X-35. The X-35 concept by Lockheed Martin was selected as the winner and the program has now entered the Systems Development Demonstration (SDD) phase of the JSF program.

                              Lockheed Martin leads a development team including Northrop Grumman, BAE Systems, and Pratt & Whitney. Lockheed Martin brings in advanced technology experience, stealth technology and other technologies and experience which it has gained during F-22 research and development. Northrop Grumman offers tactical aircraft knowledge, stealth technology and carrier suitability. BAE System provides expertise and experience with short take off and vertical landing (STOVL) technology as well as advanced subcontract management. Pratt & Whitney is the builder of the engine which will power the JSF which is based on the F-119 turbojet from the F-22.
                              To forfill the demands of the main contractors three different variants are developed. All versions will have a common structure and have the same fuselage and internal weapons bay. They will all three be powered by a F-119 modified engine. All variants will carry the standard designation F-35.
                              The F-35A is the standard variant with conventional take off and landing developed for the US Air Force, the biggest JSF customer. The F-35A will replace the F-16 and the A-10 aircraft currently operated by the USAF. The F-35A will probably also be the most exported variant. Possible export countries for the F-35A include all current F-16 Fighting Falcon, F-4 Phantom, F/A-18 Hornet operators, such as the Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Norway, Turkey, Greece, Israel, Australia, etcetera.

                              The F-35B is the STOVL variant of the JSF. The F-119 is modified using the experience of BAE Systems based on the Rolls-Royce Pegasus engine from the AV-8 Harrier. Unlike the Air Force variant the F-35B carries no internal gun and the air refuelling probe is located on the right side of the forward fuselage instead of receptacle on the top surface of the aircraft. The main customers for the F-35B will be the USMC to replace the F/A-18 Hornet ands the AV-8B Harrier IIs and the United Kingdom to replace the Royal Air Force/Royal Navy combined Harrier force of Sea Harriers and GR.7s. Other future customers can include Spain and Italy which also operate the Harrier.
                              The F-35C is a modified design which enables the JSF to operate from aircraft carriers using conventional carrier landings and capapult take off. The F-35C internal structure and landing gear have been strengthened to handle the loads associated with catapult launches and arrested carrier landings. It has a larger wing area than other JSF types with larger control surfaces for better low speed handling. Like the F-35B is has a refuelling probe instead of a receptacle. The US Navy will be the biggest customer of this variant. The F-35C will complement the US Navy fleet of F/A-18E/F fighters by replacing the F/A-18 A+ and C Hornet currently in service.
                              Future variants might include two seat trainers of each variant and possible modifications for export customers.

                              Specifications:
                              Powerplant: one Pratt & Whitney F119-611 turbofan probably producing between 34,000 and 40,000 lbs of thrust with afterburning

                              Dimensions: X-35A: length 50 ft 6 in (15.37m); height ; wing span 35 ft 0 in (10.65m) X-35C: larger wing span

                              Weights: unknown

                              Performance: max level speed unknown; service ceiling probably more than 15,240m (50,000 ft); g limit estimated at +9

                              Armament: one single-barrel Boeing Advanced 27mm cannon, primary AAM for defense is the AIM-120 AMRAAM of which at least two will be able to be carried in the internal weapon bay. The AIM-9X Sidewinder can only be carried on external additional hardpoints or on the wingtips, not in the internal weapons bay. A large variation of A-G weapons. Of which at least two JDAM GBU-31 (USAF, US Navy requirement) bombs or GBU-32 (USMC requirement) will be able to be carried in the internal weapons bay.
                              EF2000 Typhoon
                              Wing Span 10.95m
                              Length 14.96m
                              Height 5.28m
                              Wing Area 50m�
                              Foreplane Area 2.4m�
                              Empty Weight 9750 kg (approx)
                              Internal Fuel Load4000 kg (approx)
                              External Store Load 6500 kg (approx)
                              Max T/O Weight 21000 kg
                              Power2 EJ200 Turbofan Engines
                              20,000 lbf (90 kN) each with Afterburner
                              13,500 lbf (60 kN) each without Afterburner



                              Maximum Speed 2125 km/hr
                              Time to 10670m 2.5 minutes
                              Runway Requirement 700m
                              T/O run 300m
                              air combat mission



                              Combat Radiusground attack, lo-lo-lo : 601 km
                              ground attack, hi-lo-hi : 1389 km
                              air defence with 3hr CAP : 185 km
                              air defence with 10-min loiter : 1389 km



                              G Limits+9/-3 w/ int fuel and two AIM-120
                              Weapons & Stores Internally mounted 27mm Mauser gun
                              Total of 13 external stores stations: 5 (incl one wet) under fuselage and 4 (incl one wet) under each wing
                              Mix of Beyond Visual Range Air-to-Air Missiles (BVRAAM) and Short-Range Air-to-Air Missiles (SRAAM) carried externally
                              Four BVRAAM under fuselage in semi-conformal carriage configuration
                              Laser guided bombs
                              Advanced anti-armour weapons
                              Conventionally armed stand-off missiles






                              ..............and finally, the JSF F35 has been chosen to replace the UK Harrier V/STOL force.......which has already been stood down !!

                              So...in the event of a conflict requiring the V/STOL capabilities of a combat aircraft ?

                              Well, to quote "Turkish" (Jason Statham) in the movie "Snatch"....

                              "...and now ? ..... we are fucked !"



                              Last edited by brianw999; 2012-05-06, 12:35.
                              If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

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