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  • #31
    Originally posted by indian airlines
    So the whole 'pre-emptive strike because America was attacked' theory is rubbish.
    The Bush doctrine of pre-emptive strikes against states who are a threat to the security of the USA was developed because of the September 11th atrocities. The "theory" of pre-emption as a result of a strike against your home nation isn't "rubbish."

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    • #32
      Originally posted by herpa2003
      I found it interesting that Kerry was accusing the Bush administration of not supplying our troops with proper body armor and humvees. Perhaps he was hoping that people would forget that he voted against the money to give our troops these vital supplies?
      That was the worst statement made all night IMO, in terms of being hypocritical. Kerry's the one who voted against $87 Billion to buy body armor and the like.

      The debate was well-fought by both sides. I didn't learn anything new and my vote still goes to the obvious.
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      • #33
        Originally posted by FlyCharlestonSC
        Originally posted by pullin4u
        Kerry just didn't seem (to me) to have his facts in order.
        Are you joking???

        Kerry was much more eloquent than Bush. He also gave more direct and to-the-point answers. I feel like Bush didn't lie, but he had to bend the facts a little bit and take them out of context in order to put himself on top (which I don't think he did).
        Nope. Not joking. I counted more than one occasion where Kerry made an accusation and Bush was able to counter it with hard facts, as I stated above.
        To me, as a voter (considered one of the Republican "undecided", might I add), I was looking for things where Kerry didn't seem confident or have his facts in order. I also am taking into consideration the number of times Kerry appears to change his mind on any given topic...
        George R. Widener
        Oshkosh, WI USA
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        • #34
          I don't really get the flip-flop thing either. Bush has changed his mind too. I don't know why he's acting like Kerry is the only one that does.

          Bush said he would wait for the UN's vote before attacking Iraq. But he attacked before the vote.

          Bush said we didn't need a Homeland security cabinet (after 9/11), and now he supports it.

          In the 2000 campaign, Bush said he was worried about an opponent that uses the military to "nation-build." Isn't that what we're doing now?

          Bush said it was up to the states to decide about gay marriage, now he supports a federal ban.

          I'm sure most of you know all of the things Kerry has flip-flopped on from all of the commercials.
          The fact is, BOTH candidates flip-flop on different things.
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          • #35
            Originally posted by Jbrewster1012
            I don't really get the flip-flop thing either. Bush has changed his mind too. I don't know why he's acting like Kerry is the only one that does.

            Bush said he would wait for the UN's vote before attacking Iraq. But he attacked before the vote.

            Bush said we didn't need a Homeland security cabinet (after 9/11), and now he supports it.

            In the 2000 campaign, Bush said he was worried about an opponent that uses the military to "nation-build." Isn't that what we're doing now?

            Bush said it was up to the states to decide about gay marriage, now he supports a federal ban.

            I'm sure most of you know all of the things Kerry has flip-flopped on from all of the commercials.
            The fact is, BOTH candidates flip-flop on different things.
            I agree, to an extent "flip-flopping" is part of the campaign process, where the candidate will appear to go whichever way the public wants him to...but I think Kerry's problem is that he makes it so obvious that he changes his mind often. I don't disagree that Bush has flip-flopped as well...but on certain matters he has done a better job (in my opinion) at staying in one direction...
            I'm really hoping that one of these debates will give me the reason I need to vote one way or the other. I'd really rather not "throw my vote away" by voting independent...
            George R. Widener
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            • #36
              That's true. Kerry's flip-flop issues are a little bit more noticable.
              But I don't see the reasoning why GWB is basing so much of his attacks on Kerry on Kerry's flip-flops. Seems very hypocritical, IMO. Kerry could make a commercial high-lighting Bush's flip-flops.

              Politics... lol.
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              • #37
                Originally posted by Jbrewster1012
                That's true. Kerry's flip-flop issues are a little bit more noticable.
                But I don't see the reasoning why GWB is basing so much of his attacks on Kerry on Kerry's flip-flops. Seems very hypocritical, IMO. Kerry could make a commercial high-lighting Bush's flip-flops.

                Politics... lol.
                I also wonder about the emphasis on Kerry's "flip flops" in GWB's material...because really when you look at it there is a great deal of other material out there to use.
                I also highly disagree with the way Kerry has put emphasis on GWB's military record. To be honest I could give a crap about what happened back then...I worry about what has happened in the last 4 years and what would happen in the next four.
                As an opinion, I DO find it discouraging that Kerry hopped right on the anti-war peace train when he got back from Vietnam. Puts him right there with Hanoi Jane Fonda if you asked me...
                Mind you I don't think that everything about Vietnam was handled correctly by the government...but to do that when your fellow soldiers are still fighting and dying is wrong in my book. I know, I know, freedom is about expressing your opinions about government... But as the son of a Vietnam vet I don't care for that aspect of John Kerry.
                But, like I said, I will not let what happened in the early 1970's have any bearing on the way I vote in November.
                Like you said, politics
                George R. Widener
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                • #38
                  Did anyone listen to some of the crap that Kerry was pushing?

                  - Said he would GIVE nuclear fuel to Iran

                  - Said that we should not be engaging in the 5 nation talks with North Korea but should engage in bilateral talks. (In other words, we should "go it alone" with North Korea instead of working with our allies.)

                  - America can only defend itself if we pass a "global test". (Just WTF is that? I guess it means if France and Germany agree.) (If there was a gaff during the debate, this was it.)

                  - He said that during the invasion of Iraq we "protected the oil sites but didn't protect the nuclear ones..." (Now what nuclear sites is he talking about?)

                  - Claimed we should bow down at the alter of Kyoto even though he voted against it in the Senate (While never put up for a true vote, the Senate passed a bill saying how they would vote on the treaty and it would have failed by better than a 4-1 margin.)

                  - He would cancel the National Missile Defense Program and implied he would unilaterally disarm the U.S. of its nuclear weapons just to show the world how nice we can be.

                  - Said Iraq was a mistake but that he would stay there

                  - Complained about the troops not having enough body armor and yet he voted against the funds for the body armor. (The famous $87 Billion line)

                  - Claimed he never said the President "lied" and yet did in September and against in December of 2003. Now of course he just says "mislead".

                  - Kerry wants us to bow at the alter of the International Criminal Court

                  - Claimed the NYC Subway was closed during the RNC. However, the NYC Subway was running the entire time, even while President Bush gave his speech. However in Boston, the Subway was shut down in the areas around the DNC for much of the time.

                  - Said we must "reach out to the Muslim world". (Why in the heck would we want to "reach out" to people that want to kill us?!?)

                  - When asked which position he would take on North Korea, Kerry said "Both!"

                  - Said that we should have given the U.N. total control over Iraq as soon as Baghdad fell. (The same U.N. that ran the totally corrupt Oil for Food Program)

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                  • #39
                    I didn't watch. I really don't f**king care anymore. Both are running on bullsh*t campaigns.

                    -Clovis

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                    • #40
                      You want proof of John's flip flops? Video- http://media1.stream2you.com/rnc/072304v2.wmv
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                      • #41
                        Well trained by Karl Rove in opposing a sophisticated tone with simple ideas conveyed by plain language, Georges W Bush is probably the long-term winner. He knows how to show as not very brilliant as did Ronald Reagan, his spiritual father, so when pertinating, comments often are un-expected and banging like some uppercuts. John F Kerry has probably got into the same kind of trap as Al Gore.
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                        • #42
                          Most of my friends think that each opponent has one main argument.

                          Bush has, Kerry cant make up his mind.

                          Kerry has, I wont the purple heart three times. So therefore you should vote for me.
                          Sam Rudge
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                          • #43
                            The Bush doctrine of pre-emptive strikes against states who are a threat to the security of the USA was developed because of the September 11th atrocities. The "theory" of pre-emption as a result of a strike against your home nation isn't "rubbish."
                            Well, Iraq was never proven to be a threat to the United States.

                            And Iraq did not strike the US, Osama bin Laden did.
                            "The Director also sets the record straight on what would happen if oxygen masks were to drop from the ceiling: The passengers freak out with abandon, instead of continuing to chat amiably, as though lunch were being served, like they do on those in-flight safety videos."

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                            • #44
                              Debate

                              It seems pretty obvious that Kerry was the clear winner of this debate.

                              Bush looked confused, aggravated that someone does not agree with him and all out mystified. Of course, Bush is the one who would not speak to the 9/11 commission without Cheney as a chaperone for him.

                              Bush has offered about 10 different reasons for starting the war in Iraq. The current one is that the Iraqi people are better off without Saddam. And they are, but is that a good enough reason for over 1,000 U.S. dead? The N. Koreans (WHO HAVE NUCLEAR WEAPONS THAT CAN REACH THE US MAINLAND) would be better off without Kim Jong Il as well, and a host of other places would be better off without their dictators.

                              His own people now say there were no WMDs, no imminent threat etc etc. Bush seems to think that people should just believe that Iraq was a threat because he keeps saying it over and over. This man has absolutely zero credibility. He is the most morally bankrupt president in recent memory - lying repeatedly to start a war to settle a family grudge.

                              I look forward to seeing Bush sent packing on Election Day. This has been a failed presidency, and not even the Supreme Court can save him this time.
                              DFW Tower.com

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                              • #45
                                agreed

                                So the whole 'pre-emptive strike because America was attacked' theory is rubbish.
                                Agreed. If I live on a street with two other people, Joe and Tom. Tom comes into my house and attacks my family. I go looking for Tom of course, don't I? Now if Tom disappears and I can't find him, do I simply go into the other house and take my revenge on Joe? No.

                                That's what Bush has done. He failed to find Osama, gave up, and started a new war with someone he figured he could easily beat.
                                DFW Tower.com

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