Protesters make me sick!

[DeltaCappy]

Today I happen to come across a protest on the local news, with people; still protesting war is wrong, and should be stopped, even after all we have been through. It is really pathetic that these people have no clue what their country is doing for them, because for them it's easy to sit in an anchor chair and talk about a war. Although, it's a lot more difficult being in that war, fighting in that war and for some, dying in that war. But there are many who protested this war. That was their right then. But I think it's wrong now. Yet it continues. And given the transition difficulties in Iraq, it is even picking up steam now. I think it borders on insulting now. Not only because the war clearly was a success. But because of the Americans who lost their lives to make it a success. I want those who still burn flags and hurl insults to change venues. Away from very public places like the White House or New York's Times Square and to the front lawns of the homes of families who've lost loved ones. If you're so convinced fighting for the freedom of an oppressed people wasn't worth their sons and daughters dying, then tell them directly. Tell the young wife, who's now a widow. Or the proud Indiana mom and dad, who are now childless. Or the 21-year-old woman just giving birth, who's now a mother and a father. Tell the four-year-old boy who doesn't understand his dad won't ever be coming back home to play. Or the sister who will never see her only brother. Tell them their loved one's mission was a lark. Tell them the smiles you saw on those cheering faces in Baghdad didn't provide some comfort in this carnage. Tell them improving the plight of millions of starving Iraqis wasn't worth their loved ones' lives. Go ahead. Lecture them. Rant at them. Save your speeches not for the politicians who make war, but the real people, who paid the price for this war. When you call this war a waste, you call their loved ones' ultimate sacrifice a waste as well. You demean them and you demean those who survive them. I see a country liberated now. I'll never forget the liberators. I see a people smiling now. I'll never forget the people who made them smile. We should all die making such a difference. All you protesters, should live, making such a difference. I want you now to look at the faces of sacrifice and honor and courage. And of people who spent their time, not burning the flag, but fighting and dying for it. So the next time you refuse to bury the hatchet and insist you weren't wrong, think of those who are burying their loved ones and need to know their cause was right. They made a difference. You just make me sick.

[indian airlines]

Big words, strong sentiments, etc, etc..........

Just realise this, if there was no war, no Americans would have died.

Simple as that.

[indian airlines]

And yes, it's of no use protesting against the war in Iraq after the war is over. Now the protests should be about Bush's handling of the post-Scumball Iraq.

[Richard]

Yes, this war is so glorious and great. Especially seeing that so many innocents are suffering. Yeah, the fact that so many innocents are without food, water, and electricity and others must deal with the loss of a loved one who had nothing to do with the war simply brings peace to my heart. I thank the heavens above for this great man George W. Bush to liberate these people.

Yeah, I love seeing the Iraqi people demonstrating against their supposed liberators simply because this war has unleashed more suffering than under Saddam, on top of that, these liberated people aren't even govern themselves, not until a staunchly pro-liberator government is installed. It's a beautiful sight to see the looting and lost property while the liberators secure Iraq's oil.

Yes, it absolutely sickens me to see anti-war protests because these people actually care about humanity, because they believe in peace, and because they are pragmatists and are not what they should be, irrational and arrogant warmongers.

[indian airlines]

For those of you who don't understand subtle implications, Richard was being sarcastic when he said that anti-war protesters made him sick......

[herpa2003]

Actually, the majority of Iraqis LOVE the US and George Bush. We freed them from a dictator who killed millions of people. They are now free to speak what they want without fear of being killed or torured for what they say. They will soon have more food and more water, and electricity is already back on in most places.

[Richard]

I most sincerely hope so.

[AC_A340-500]

DeltaCappy:

Very touching, but seriously now:

Anti-war protesters interestingly use many of the same arguments as you did (with the killed son, dad, brother etc.). With the exception that they have correctly identified the cause-and-effect relationship that leads to the death of these soldiers.
Let's also not forget that many of the killed soldiers became soldies for monetary reasons and not because of idealistic or patriotic reasons. If you would have asked the soldiers the day before they headed off to Iraq if they really wanted to go there, you'd probably get a lot of "NO's" for answers. Were those soldiers shown by America's complient media? No, of course not, or at least not often.
Many other soldiers were probably too afraid of being labeled as "unpatriotic" by overly vocal pro-war advocates yelling and writing things like "you just make me sick". Without mentioning any names, Delta.

In addition, I'm not sure what makes you think that most Iraqis see the Americans as liberators. Most actually see the US as occupiers of their country. Try a news source other than the Associated Press for a change.
The fact that the US had all strategic areas which threatened Israel, and most oil flields secure within a week, but still hasn't made a real effort to secure hospitals, schools, and museums pretty much sums up the real agenda.

The facts that you listed about the dead soldiers are every bit as tragic as you described them, but unfortunately so is the real cause behind their deaths.

Yes, given my anti-war stance, I "make me sick" as well. But only because I didn't go out and protest more than I did.

[Airigami]

It is really pathetic that these people have no clue what their country is doing for them

Yes, I agree. People should really be more readily acknowledging that they are happy for their jobs to be taken away by Bush's ridiculous economic policies. People in Middle America should really be thankful that the rich are set for more tax cuts.

Whilst the Missouri Governor orders that every third lightbulb in the state legislature be removed to save money; whilst classes at D.C. schools are conducted in bathrooms; whilst one million children nationwide don't have adequate healthcare;

While the U.S. government pays billions of dollars in defense spending...

...and plans to cut the taxes of the rich by at least $300 billion. (incidentally, a policy commonly referred to as "trickle-down economics", dreamt up by a bunch of flat-earthers in the late 70s that was rejected by about 396 of 400 expert economists nationwide before it was introduced by Reagan ... it failed so badly even Reagan eventually rejected it ... but now Bush is trying it again.)

Yes, it is really pathetic that these people have no clue what their country is doing for them.

Because if they did know what their country was doing for them, a Democrat would be back in the White House faster than you can say "Deficit".

[iceman]

Actually, “trickle down” economics was quite successful in the 80’s, but I am a bit hesitant myself about the need for tax cuts at this time.

As for these “peace” protestors, their organizers reveal their true motives. Anyone heard of International A.N.S.W.E.R.? They organized most of these "peace" protests, which ended up being shams as they called for redirected violence. They’re a front for the Worker’s Party of the World, which is Stalinist in nature. They organized these protests to get recruitment for their cause. Remember, the Communist Manifesto calls for a “revolution”.

Furthermore, if anyone really cared for the suffering innocent Iraqis, they would have protested against Saddam Hussein’s tyrannical regime. I don’t recall hearing of a single protest against him. I don’t know what that says to you, but it brings up a lot of questions about the true motivation of some of these people.

[Greg]

A delicate subject but I'll explain what I think.

Saddam was a moron who cared about nothing except himself. he killed his own people without lying awake and caring. The U.S. goes to war you protest. Why? Because you beleive only what you see on T.V. you beleive only what you read. you don't think for yourself you think your way or the highway. this occurred on both sides. A freedom that you have that the Iraqi's didn't have was to say "My leader sucks" and no one to drop you in a plastic shredder. Do you not realize that protests now only happen when there are cameras on the protestors? you see the protestors. Since none of you are Iraqi's and victims of madman. During the 2000 election my cousin said a vote for nader was a vot for Bush. well a vote NO to military action to give the iraqi's freedom was a vote for saddam. you may say "Peace in our time". Saddam doesn't want peace he wants to live in a nice palace and do whatever the hell he wants. Anyone who idolizes Hitler in my opinion is someone who should be desposed. The protestors are right in their ability to use their right to free speech but are wrong in the fact that they are thinking of themselves. The U.S. may have some domestic issues but wouldwould we rather watch the suffering a people or we rather give up some things to help others? it's a choice. Whether you support one side or the other it doesn't matter to me as if you think about it is what matters. i know all of you will most likely blow this aside and say "blah...blah..we don't want saddam or war) but it's a cause and effect you have one or the other. thank you.

[AC_A340-500]

Iceman:

C'mon, Stalinist? Communist? Give me a break! I will agree with you that there is a tendency for left-wingers to be more active in peace protesting, but for you to make that type of sweeping generalization is absurd. This issue isn't about left-wing or right-wing, it's more about authoritarian/libertarian. For example a libertarian right-winger would be far more inclined to attend a peace march than a authoritarian communist.
I'm a self-proclaimed right-wing conservative (even though "consevative" may be an outdated and relative term), yet I oppose the war (or what's left of it). This anti-war stance does not in any way jeopardize my RW views on things. As for some of the organizers being left-wing Worker’s Party advocates, this hardly reflects the views of the majority of the protesters. Just like the large Zionist influence of the current US administration doesn't make every Republican a Zionist.
By the way, no one is questioning the fact that Hussein needed to go. It just shouldn't be a single countrys perogative to decide which regime needs to be replaced and which is allowed to stay. There are lots of other bad regimes out there who are just as guilty (as the Hussein regime) of crimes against humanity, yet none of the wonderful advocates of liberty (pro-war people) have taken notice. Hussein has been bad for a long time. But it seems like as long as he was a paying customer, the US tolerated him. Same old story.
p.s. I still have to send you that email


Greg:
I'm just afraid that in a year's time we'll be sitting here arguing about the fate of some other country that the US plans on attacking because their regime is supposedly evil. A country which most Americans would just shrug their shoulders at today if asked whether it's got an evil regime. 18 months ago most Americans would have shrugged their shoulders if the question had been asked about Iraq (heck even the CIA declared Iraq as a non-threat). In that short time, the US administration did some effective advertising and needless to say, found customers.

[Airigami]

The protestors are right in their ability to use their right to free speech but are wrong in the fact that they are thinking of themselves. The U.S. may have some domestic issues but wouldwould we rather watch the suffering a people or we rather give up some things to help others? it's a choice.

Alright, if you accept that the U.S. was merely freeing the people of Iraq and that anti-war protesters should stop thinking about domestic issues and themselves and instead think about helping others, then

- why hasn't the U.S. done anything about Zimbabwe where Mugabe just randomly terrorises and takes away the land of whites and his opponents (white and black alike)?

- why hasn't the U.S. done anything about Saudi Arabia which has proven links to terrorism and treats women like cr@p?

- why hasn't the U.S. done anything about North Korea for the decades that they have starved their people?

- why hasn't the U.S. done anything about China's occupation of Tibet and its persecution of Buddhist monks?

- why hasn't the U.S. done anything about the Burmese regime and its brutality against all opposition?

- why didn't the U.S. do anything about Indonesia's brutal treatment of East Timor when the nation was only liberated with the help of Australia, NZ, Portugal, Brazil, Thailand and a bunch of other global political 'minnows'?

The list goes on...

There are PLENTY of horrible dictators out there like Saddam Hussein who equally need to be given the shove. But why Iraq in particular? Why a country which is STILL yet to be proven to be in possession of WMD and a country drained of its resources (including food) by sanctions.

And why was pre-emptive war the ONLY option?

Regimes come and go. Eventually people rise up against tyrannical leaders, and often reform happens from within. Just look at South Africa. Once a burgeoning nuclear power with biological and chemical weapons, and the only enforcement by the U.S. and the world community was sanctions. But that regime still crumbled. It crumbled from within as does every illegitimate regime. Eventually.

Also, it is my firm belief that democracy must come from within. Democracy is a vague concept. There is true democracy and fake democracy. Just because there is a right to vote, and elections, does not a democracy make. Just look at Iraq. Even they had elections (albeit with Saddam last winning with 100% of the vote)! You cannot impose democracy by saying here's two candidates, here's a ballot box, presto! Democracy!

Democracy is something that evolves. Even the U.S. did not have true democracy until about 30 years ago. Until then, African-Americans did not have the right to vote. Nor did women until the early part of last century. Russia is a case in point of how you cannot impose democracy too quickly. I don't think democracy CAN be imposed on Iraq. The recent convention in Iraq showed that most leaders there don't even understand the concept of democracy! But mark my words - Iran (not Iraq) WILL be a democracy within 20 years. You only need to look at the younger generation - intelligent, worldly and ready for change. It will be a true example of the evolution of democracy. Iraq's transition to democracy may be many decades away. But if it evolves naturally, it will be a TRUE democracy.

And one last point. Greg, you say that the protesters should stop being selfish about domestic issues. I hate to say it, but human beings, you and me alike, are fundamentally selfish. If you were to ask almost anyone in lower or middle America if they would rather the government spend billions of dollars to free the people of an obscure foreign nation thousands of miles away OR to concentrate on the economy and guarantee their jobs, I think I can tell you now what 99% of the responses would be.

[iceman]

I did not make the sweeping generalization that these “peace” protestors were Stalinist. I said that most of their organizers were. And if you look who organizes most of them (i.e. International A.N.S.W.E.R.), you would probably agree.

A.N.S.W.E.R. is not in it for the Iraqi people. They have another agenda which they actively promote in their gatherings. I do not trust the motives of these people, especially in light of seeing what they promote. And if you think it’s just a few bad apples, you should have seen the ruckus they caused in SF. Even here in NY they caused more harm than good.

“Zionist” influence in U.S. Government. I know that view is popular in Europe.

In any case, none of the anti-war explanations explain why Saddam needed to stay. Bad dictators are everywhere, yes, but it is still inexcusable and dishonest for people protesting for the Iraqi people when they know damn well that the Iraqi people have been suffering all along even before war and sanctions were issues. They just have no credibility with me and it will take a very, very long time for me to take their views seriously again.

And remember, the U.S. wasn’t the only one involved or promoting this war. Britain took a front and center role as well. Funny how that’s never mentioned.

And for the record I was against this war at first, but mostly for selfish reasons (i.e. it would adversely affect my consulting gig). At least I'm being honest. What changed my opinion was seeing how some of these “peace” protestors behave. And I didn’t get this from TV; I saw it live and in person in NYC.

P.S. Still waiting for that e-mail!!

[Airigami]

I agree with Iceman to an extent in terms of many protests just being an excuse for groups like A.N.S.W.E.R. to go out on the streets and wreak havoc, be it in anti-war protests, or marches on the IMF or World Bank, and believe me, we get them ALL here in D.C.!

I think that the flaw in much of the protesting goes to the heart of what is wrong with the left wing. Now, I am most definitely left wing. Truth be told, the Democrats are a little conservative for me. But I am also a realist. My wife and I saw one of the anti-war protests downtown, and a major problem there was mixed messages. While some people were chanting "No War on Iraq" others were chanting "Free Palestine" or "Forgive Third World Debt". There was no one really concerted message. I think that is endemic of the larger problem of a lack of focus on the left wing nowadays.

This is made worse by protesters turning violent. It achieves nothing to break some windows or destroy a McDonalds or to harm a cop. These kinds of protesters are just in it for a bit of biffo. They don't believe in anything at all legitimate.

The left needs to come together with ONE message at a time and to present that message in a clear, persuasive *non-violent* way.