Future Pilots: what would you do in this situation?

[Freightdogg]

Here's one to ponder for all the Pilots in Training and Future Pilots out there.

The Situation:

You are flying a Cessna C-208A Caravan, single engine turboprop, at night, and the weather is IMC (Instrument Meteorological Conditions) from your altitude down to 300 feet AGL. (Above Ground Level) You are level at 8000 feet MSL. (Mean Sea Level) From this altitude you have a glide radius of approximately 15 miles. You are the sole occupant of the aircraft and you are flying over mountainous terrain. The mountain tops in the area in which you are flying are obscured by weather and there is no nearby level terrain. The nearest airport with a useable ILS (Instrument Landing System) is your destination and is still 25 minutes away.

The Problem:

Both the Warning Light and Warning Horn for an engine fire have just gone off. There are no other indications of fire and the aircraft appears to be operating normally otherwise.

By The Book:

Here is the Pilot's Operating Handbook Checklist for fire in flight (Numbered items in Bold are memory items to be performed immediately before using checklist to confirm.)...

SMOKE AND FIRE

ENGINE FIRE IN FLIGHT (Red ENGINE FIRE Annunciator On)

1. Power Lever -- IDLE.
2. Propeller Control Lever -- FEATHER.
3. Fuel Condition Lever -- CUTOFF.
4. Fuel Shutoff -- OFF.
5. Cabin Heat Firewall Shutoff Control -- PULL OFF.
6. Forward Side Vents -- CLOSE.
7. Overhead Vents -- OPEN.
8. Wing Flaps -- 20 -30 degrees.
9. Airspeed -- 80-85 KIAS.
10. Forced Landing -- EXECUTE (as described in Emergency Landing Without Engine Power).


The Question:
What would you do in this situation? Keep in mind that if you go by the book there is an excellent chance of striking terrain before you see anything. (This actually happened to me a little over 15 years ago.)

[JeffinDEN]

First and always the only order of business in any emergency is FLY THE PLANE.

A true engine fire would have other indications which you say are not present. Disregard the current warning lights, turn off the horn, monitor engine vital instruments for signs. Initiate a shallow climb while you still have power, Altitude = Life. Get on the radio and state your position, direction, speed, conditions and number of souls on board. Head to the nearest field.

[Nicki Mks]

I wouldn't follow the book. Doesn't it make any exceptions for this?

Grtz,

Nicki

[Greg]

Find the nearest airport on your handy GPS unit. if it is in your 15 mile glide radius turn off thengine and glide till you are over the airport, make a loop descent over the airfield until you are visual (if you the clouds go all the way to the ground use the GPS to try to find the field) and then land and call your mechanic. My scenario is dependent on the GPS and the location of an airfield within 15 miles. And I hope not to end up in a situation like that, although anything can happen.

[Avianca 757]

Theres a local saying that states: "Velocidad y Altura Mantienen la Dentadura" (Speed and Altitude mantains teeth) and another one that says "No hay avión que rebote ni cerro que se agache" (There's no bouncing plane nor ducking mountain).

I'd follow that statements, as manuals don't fit in that situations the best, I'd try to mantain altitude (as well as cutting off fuel, blades as feather and that...) and try to get in contact with the tower to receive vectors to the most inmediate place safe to land, not necesarily an airport, it could be some field (Would have to trust the tower as there would be no visibility below 300 AGL, that last 300 feet would be all theirs).

I remember something like that happened some years ago to an Aces Colombia DHC6-300 Twin Otter covering Medellín - Caucasia, he ended landing on some farm....but it was on daytime.

[JeffinDEN]

Greg.
People will be laughing at your funeral. A light and a horn does not mean there is a fire, and to shut down your only engine and try to glide through mountains you cannot even see is insane. A pilot will not shut down his only engine until the damn thing quits running, unless he has not even taken off yet!

Common sense boy!

[Greg]

But what if the lights do mean something you just can't see it, that's why I said use the GPS, if the airport you intend to reach is less that 15 miles you could glide in without damaging your engine or if the airport was too far away you could keep the engine runnig possibly damaging it and causing a wreck leavign your whitened bones on the top of a mountain. Say there is a fire and the fire burns through the engine mounts and your engine drops away where will you be then? What happens if it is overheating a arts are fusing together? I didn't say my idea was the best and thats probably the reason why I don't fly night IFR in mountains. I said you would glide above the clouds until you were above the airport and do a tight spiral over the field. I guess it is true that military pilots are arrogant.

[mikecweb]

I'd keep climbing as long as I could. As long as you can climb that glide radius will increase. At the same time establish contact and get vectors around terrain first followed by vectors to the closest airport. At the first smell or sight of smoke or fire I would feather and shutdown. Then go for best glide distance. But if you start gliding before ATC contact you could glide right into a mountain.

[JeffinDEN]

A whole lot of what ifs!

Take my word for it. Don't shut down the one thing that is keeping you in the air. IF it is a real fire you will know it eventually, then, and only if it is bad, and the engine cannot sustain itself, shut it down. Your best bet is to climb for what ever that sucker has left in it. Then, if you have sufficient altitude, you may try shutting it down to see if the fire goes out. If so, start her back up! If not, pitch all the luggage you can. Get on your cell phone and tell mom and dad goodbye.

Your goal as a pilot is not to ensure you don't burn up an engine, they can be replaced, but to ensure takeoffs = landings.

[Freightdogg]

Here's a little more information...

The Caravan involved was in fact the first Caravan to carry any revenue freight. It was approximately 3 years old at the time and had been involved in two prior tailstrike incidents on the ground. One from improper loading and the other when a pilot used reverse thrust to back the plane up but attempted to stop with the brakes rather than taking the prop out of reverse. The plane had been properly repaired before flying again after each incident. Overall maintenance was excellent.

The aircraft was not equipped with GPS or LORAN or Area navigation. (RNAV) The pilot was not equipped with a cell phone, but was in continuous radio contact with ATC though was not in radar contact at that time so vectors to the nearest airport were not an option. In fact due to the terrain there was no available airport within gliding distance. The cargo load was approximately 3200 pounds. Theoretically cargo ejection might have been possible as the aircraft was autopilot equipped, however the type of cargo restraints used would have made this fairly time consuming and being unsure how opening the rear cargo door would affect flight characteristics this was not considered a good option.

There was a portable fire extinguisher under the copilot seat, though not large enough for a major fire. No fire suppression system was installed in the engine compartment.


Here is an excerpt from the approved Pilot's Operating Handbook that describes the engine fire detection equipment...


ENGINE FIRE DETECTION SYSTEM

The engine fire detection system consists of a heat sensor in the engine compartment, a warning light, labeled ENGINE FIRE, on the annunciator panel, and a warning horn above the pilot. The heat sensor consists of three flexible closed loops. When high engine compartment temperatures are experienced the heat causes a change in resistance in the closed loops. This change in resistance is sensed by a control box, located on the aft side of the firewall, which will illuminate the annunciator light and trigger the audible warning horn. Fire warning is initiated when temperatures in the engine compartment exceed 425 degrees F (218 deg. C) on the first section (firewall), 625 deg. F (329 deg. C) on the second section (around the exhaust), or 450 deg. F (232 deg. C) on the third section (rear engine compartment). A test switch, labeled FIRE DETECT TEST, is located adjacent to the annunciator panel. When depressed, the ENGINE FIRE annunciator will illuminate and the warning horn will sound indicating that the fire warning circuitry is operational. The system is protected by a "pull-off" type circuit breaker, labeled FIRE DET, on the left sidewall switch and circuit breaker panel.


A visual inspection of the fire detection wires in the engine compartment is a preflight inspection item and was performed before the flight in question. The circuitry test mentioned is also on the "Before Starting Engine" checklist and was also performed.

For those unfamiliar with the Caravan, for a powered aircraft, it happens to be quite a good glider. Once the prop is feathered the glide ratio is 15:1 which is about the same performance as the gliders that Germany used in the 30's to train many of it's future Luftwaffe pilots.

[JeffinDEN]

I have worked on the fire detection system on the A-7, A-4, F-4 and the F-14. I can tell you that just because the light comes on in PTT does not mean the system works. It is all based on resistance, so that a Short will not trigger the light, yet it will NOT work on PTT. But if the loop is broken, the system will still work but not PTT.

It is possible that a bleed air leak on one of the elements can trigger the light without a true fire. Most pilots will idle back some to see if a change in power settigs changes anything.

[screaming_emu]

Re: Future Pilots: what would you do in this situation?

Here's one to ponder for all the Pilots in Training and Future Pilots out there.

The Situation:

You are flying a Cessna C-208A Caravan, single engine turboprop, at night, and the weather is IMC (Instrument Meteorological Conditions) from your altitude down to 300 feet AGL. (Above Ground Level) You are level at 8000 feet MSL. (Mean Sea Level) From this altitude you have a glide radius of approximately 15 miles. You are the sole occupant of the aircraft and you are flying over mountainous terrain. The mountain tops in the area in which you are flying are obscured by weather and there is no nearby level terrain. The nearest airport with a useable ILS (Instrument Landing System) is your destination and is still 25 minutes away.

The Problem:


Both the Warning Light and Warning Horn for an engine fire have just gone off. There are no other indications of fire and the aircraft appears to be operating normally otherwise.

By The Book:

Here is the Pilot's Operating Handbook Checklist for fire in flight (Numbered items in Bold are memory items to be performed immediately before using checklist to confirm.)...

SMOKE AND FIRE

ENGINE FIRE IN FLIGHT (Red ENGINE FIRE Annunciator On)

1. Power Lever -- IDLE.
2. Propeller Control Lever -- FEATHER.
3. Fuel Condition Lever -- CUTOFF.
4. Fuel Shutoff -- OFF.
5. Cabin Heat Firewall Shutoff Control -- PULL OFF.
6. Forward Side Vents -- CLOSE.
7. Overhead Vents -- OPEN.
8. Wing Flaps -- 20 -30 degrees.
9. Airspeed -- 80-85 KIAS.
10. Forced Landing -- EXECUTE (as described in Emergency Landing Without Engine Power).


The Question:
What would you do in this situation? Keep in mind that if you go by the book there is an excellent chance of striking terrain before you see anything. (This actually happened to me a little over 15 years ago.)

Hmm...that is a tough call, I've heard the Caravan has great soft/unimproved field landing characteristics. But the fact that you cant see the ground kinda makes this a moot point. I think that due to the fact that there are few things that would suck more than an in flight fire I would go ahead and shut down the engine. When you say the nearest field with an ILS is 25 mins away, is that the only airport? I'm sure you could get on the horn and ask ATC to the nearest field ILS or not. I've learned from my intro to atc class its pretty easy to vector to pretty much anywhere you need a plane to be. Otherwise, if atc couldent help, I'd just maintain best glide all the way into the trees, unless miraculusly I can get through and actually see what I'm going to land on. I read in a book "dealing with inflight emergencies" that if you gotta land in trees, its better to keep a constant rate rather than attempt to flare before hitting them.

This just goes to prove what many say, night IMC in single engine aircraft is not a cool thing. Too bad many businesses really dont care.

[screaming_emu]

Personally...after reading the fact that vectors were not an option, I'd still shut it down. Fire is a scary thing in flight, and personally, I'd rather take a tree at 80kts. If there actually IS a fire, and it spreads to the fuel tanks...you got fireworks. I personally would elect to take my chances with the trees.


Oh...and what I'd do if I got below the clouds and saw a mountain...I would put my head between my legs and kiss my ass goodbye

[mikecweb]

Trees in level terrain are ok. But trees on mountain terrain won't help ya.

[JeffinDEN]

Great choice! Put a burning plane down in a bunch of match sticks! There is NO garuntee that shutting down the engine will extinguish the fire either. But then your stuck, crushed in a burning plane on the side of a mountain what difference does it make?

Keep it running until it takes it's last breath........better it's then yours. :P