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BBC World: "Israel's Secret Weapon" this weekend

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  • #16
    First of all, no one will ever forget the holocoust much like no one will ever forget 9/11-It shouldn't be forgotten. If you forget about it, you let it happen again. 6 million people killed is nothing to forget about. Being almost entirely wiped out isn't "playing" the vitcim-they were the vitctims.

    About Israel only caring for Israel- That is not true. Israel and America remain close friends and they will stay that way. True, we give them weapons and support, but that is because they are being attacked from all sides. They have not even been around for a full century and there has already been wars against them and countless terrorist attacks against them-they have a right to be mad! I think the only way this will end is when Israel destroys Hamas and other terrorist organizations like Hamas.
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    • #17
      The Palestinians should allow the Israelis to live peacefully, kaddyuk.

      The US is friends with Israel because we know that they are right, that they have the right to live peacefully. We know what they are going through, and vice versa. Not because of protection, etc, but becasue of morals. The attacks on innocent Israelis cannot stand, and the only way to stop the attacks is to get rid of the terrorists causing the attacks.
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      • #18
        jiml1126:

        Yes, I caught the show here this morning. Glad to see that BBC’s reporting is as comprehensive as ever. This type of open reporting is not that common, even in most parts of the Western world, where certain topics are simply taboo. Again, my hat goes off to the BBC.

        While Israel’s nuclear program is no secret, it is often made to sound justifiable (to the Western world) because of the country’s strong ties to the USA. These strong ties exist not because the average American thinks that “Israel’s political ideology and interests are in line with ours”, but rather because of the subtle but strong pro-Israeli lobby in the USA.


        herpa2003:

        Herpa, I’m afraid that I can not agree with you on supporting Israel’s nuclear weapons program. I believe (as do many Israelis and Jews worldwide) that their nuclear weapons program indeed upsets stability in the region. Terrorism is a complicated issue. I don’t think that any half-way informed and unbiased individual honestly thinks that terrorism is about inherently evil people inflicting pain and suffering and death on others. Sadly, we never really get to hear the underlying cause for terrorism: The MOTIVE. Even after 911, no one in the press was willing to talk about motive. Attention was centred around the details, beginning with the terrorists, planes, buildings, some bad guys named Al-Quaeda – but never a motive. The question of WHY the terrorists did what they did never surfaced. I think that if we are genuinely concerned with preventing such horrible events in the future, we need to start asking the question WHY. The same goes for Israel. I certainly don’t think that Palestinians are inherently evil. I think that the suicide bombers carry out those atrocious acts because the people of Palestine are so desperate, frustrated and filled with a feeling of hopelessness (because, among other reasons, no one in the Western world is willing to help them). One can easily see countless parallels between this situation and South Africa's "apartheid" and "freedom-fighters". Nonetheless, I think that such horrible acts are unjustified. As are the means with which the Sharon regime has dealt and continues to deal with the “Palestinian problem”, as he terms it. Indeed, Sharon’s politics have caused the situation to escalate exponentially. He needs to go. Many, many Israelis see it that way as well. (BTW, he was due to stand trial for War Crimes in Belgium, for the atrocities he committed to the refugees in Lebanon in the early ‘80’s, but in the last 2 weeks, the USA put pressure on the Belgium government to change the laws permitting such lawsuits – even though the laws were instated decades ago because the USA wanted these laws to be in place in Belgium to help hunt war criminals world wide).
        And Herpa: what’s that about “morals”?! The Israeli regime in recent years has been anything but “moral”.


        B757300:

        Now back to the real issue: Israel, some argue does not need to be inspected as Iraq was. The main argument is that Iraq was a threat to it’s neighbours because it has shown aggression in the past. This is true, but Israel has attacked more of it’s neighbours (including Lebanon, Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, not to mention the Palestinian territories) than any other countries in the region. In fact, I think it still illegally occupies parts of Syria. By far the most aggressive, and most frequently.


        Iceman:

        America may not have supplied Israel of it’s nuclear capabilities, but it did supply them with the means of delivery (in form of missiles with adequate range).


        A few points to clarify:

        Do the Jewish people need their own state, where they can live peacefully? YES!
        Has Israel enjoyed a sort of “special status” in light of the holocaust? Probably
        Have they abused this “special status”? It sure looks like it
        Is the USA finding it more and more difficult to justify it’s unconditional support of Israel since Sharon’s regime? I think so
        Should Israel be placed under international pressure to change it’s policies? yes
        Do I think that both the actions Palestinian suicide bombers and Israeli government are equally to blame? Yes
        Is Israel the “victim” and Palestine the perpetrator? No
        Are the people of Israel paying the price for the Israeli government’s actions (especially since Sharon)? I think so
        Do I hope that both sides come to their senses and live happily ever after? yes

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by herpa2003
          First of all, no one will ever forget the holocoust much like no one will ever forget 9/11-It shouldn't be forgotten. If you forget about it, you let it happen again. 6 million people killed is nothing to forget about. Being almost entirely wiped out isn't "playing" the vitcim-they were the vitctims.
          It's already forgotten I'm afraid.
          Especially by Europeans who now once again turn to antisemitism as an answer to their problems.
          In the 1970s they betrayed Israel to safeguard the aupply of oil from the Arab states.
          Now they more or less openly ship weapons and explosives to the so-called Palestinians in order to kill more Jews for them.
          When synagogues in Brussels and Paris burn the police do nothing, when a brick is thrown through a window of a mosque a witchhunt for the perpatrators starts.
          Moroccan youths are not apprehended when they shout anti-Jewish slogans during the Dutch remembrance of the deaths of WW2, including the Jews who were deported to the deathcamps.

          They have not even been around for a full century and there has already been wars against them and countless terrorist attacks against them-they have a right to be mad! I think the only way this will end is when Israel destroys Hamas and other terrorist organizations like Hamas.
          You are (sadly) quite right. The so-called Palestinian freedom fighters won't stop until not a Jew or Christian is left alife in Israel (if then, I have a feeling they'll expand their campaign of hatred and slaughter once that goal has been reached).

          Had Israel been openly threatening its neighbours with invasion and occupation of their territory ever in their existence (instead of taking back what was taken from them by those neighbours in 1948, and maybe taking some enemy land during a war started by those neighbours) Israel would not be left alone (as far as they are which isn't far) by the international community.
          Like it or not, they're basically a peaceful country that has been fighting against enemies on all sides who want nothing but the annihilation of the state and the destruction of all who live there for all of its existence.
          If that makes you paranoid and causes you to develop weapons that can halt the largest army those enemies can gather in it's tracks than that's perfectly understandable.

          Comment


          • #20
            [quote="AC_A340-500
            Herpa, I’m afraid that I can not agree with you on supporting Israel’s nuclear weapons program. I believe (as do many Israelis and Jews worldwide) that their nuclear weapons program indeed upsets stability in the region. Terrorism is a complicated issue. [/quote]

            Fact remains that before Israel announced their nuclear weapons they were invaded by their neighbours every few years.
            Since the announcement they haven't been invaded once.

            So unless you mean by "upsets the stability" that the very existence of Israel upsets the stability in the region and you'd rather see the country detroyed and its people slaughtered then you're in the wrong.

            Comment


            • #21
              Especially by Europeans who now once again turn to antisemitism as an answer to their problems
              I think we can pretty much discount your post if you're saying that proof of the opinions of 300 million Europeans rests on a few relatively isolated incidents. Furthermore, I can't believe that you'd label anyone who is critical of Israel's policy toward Palestinians as anti-semitical. What, can't someone voice his/her opinion about certain actions that Israel has taken without immediately being labelled as an anti-semite? C'mon that's absurd! We're talking about certain aspects of political decisions that Israel has made and not about whether or not Jewish people are good or bad (I for one like Jewish people just as much as I like any other kind of people).

              Europeans have not forgotten the Holocaust. We never will. Your generalizations are baseless, and insulting.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by AC_A340-500
                jiml1126:




                [This is true, but Israel has attacked more of it’s neighbours (including Lebanon, Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, not to mention the Palestinian territories) than any other countries in the region. In fact, I think it still illegally occupies parts of Syria. By far the most aggressive, and most frequently.

                This is where you are wrong. Israel has not attacked any countries first, Israel was the victim being attacked. Surely you cannot blame Israel for other countries invading them!

                1948 War of Independance

                On 14 May 1948 the State of Israel was proclaimed according to the UN partition plan (1947). Less than 24 hours later, the regular armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq invaded the country, forcing Israel to defend the sovereignty it had regained in its ancestral homeland. In what became known as Israel's War of Independence, the newly formed, poorly equipped Israel Defense Forces (IDF) repulsed the invaders in fierce intermittent fighting, which lasted some 15 months and claimed over 6,000 Israeli lives (nearly one percent of the country's Jewish population at the time).

                As you can see here, Israel was the one attacked.

                1973 Yom Kippur War

                Three years of relative calm along the borders were shattered on Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement), the holiest day of the Jewish year, when Egypt and Syria launched a coordinated surprise assault against Israel (6 October 1973), with the Egyptian army crossing the Suez Canal and Syrian troops penetrating the Golan Heights.

                Again, Israel was the one attacked.

                As you can see, blaming Israel for these wars is not correct and is wrong.

                Israel is the least aggressive country in the region, being attacked on many occasions.
                They have a right to their WMD.
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                Comment


                • #23
                  The fact that people think only the Palestinians are to blame and that they are the only ones doing wrong things makes me sick. This is why peace will not come easily. AC A340-500, you summed up everything I was trying to say in my earlier post perfectly, great post. It seems too many people on here are extremely biased and don't realize BOTH sides are to blame.
                  Earl From Regina

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    And @ who's hands will this happen? Anyone foolish enough to try and remove Israel from the map will be turned into radioactive ash for the next 10,000 years.
                    Actually I was referring to when these guys hit the pearly gates and get directed south .. but I disagree with your comments about the nuclear attack because I suspect if they are ever pulled into line it will be by the United States of America, if they can ever see past the $$$$ being poured into politics by a select few who are buying the protection for Israel.

                    I swear, based on some of the responses, this thread belongs on Airliners.net.
                    No, like everything else that is good, conversations of this type are now banned at airliners.net.

                    Being almost entirely wiped out isn't "playing" the vitcim-they were the vitctims.
                    The holocaust was over 60 years ago, no one should ever forget it but build a bridge and get the hell over it .. the only people who deserve ongoing sympathy about the holocaust were those who were there and their IMMEDIATE family. All to often people hang on to the past, not as a method of remembering or in respect but to play the sympathy card to better their lot. A young jewish person living in America (for instance) most likely is not affected IN ANY WAY by the holocaust, those who can track a direct line to relations murdered during the holocaust would not have known them anyway as they would have died of old age by now. They are, literally, ancestors. Not to mention those jewish people who have no direct link to ANYONE affected by the holocaust.

                    And what gives them more right than the rest of us who sacrificed family members to assist them during the war? When did they have more right to sympathy and sadness than someone of my age, denied the right to grow up with a grandfather by the horrors of war? Simple answer is they don't.

                    The holocaust was horrific for a lot of reasons but to me the main one is that there would be a group of people so horrific that they would murder without guilt. Oh wait .. they're still alive and well AND LIVING IN ISREAL (and Palestine, and Iraq, and Iran, and Syria, and Kenya and .. and .. and ...)

                    5 million jews killed .. a horrifically huge number of murder victims at the hands of the Nazis .. but it really pales into insignificance when you put it against the 20 million Russians killed during the war ..

                    It really is all relative.

                    Israel and America remain close friends and they will stay that way.
                    Interesting .... Isreal feels they control America, Sharon even said so in Parliament a few years ago. America acts in sympathy not friendship. America needs allies in that region, but who else is wondering about a potential shift in the status quo when Iraq becomes "Americans newest bestest friend"?

                    I think the only way this will end is when Israel destroys Hamas and other terrorist organizations like Hamas.
                    It's that way of thinking that has extended this war for over 50 years.

                    The Palestinians should allow the Israelis to live peacefully,
                    and the Israelis should allow the Palestinians to live peacefully also, but they continue to annex more and more of the Palestinian land, kill innocent Palestinians ... I abhor violence as much as the next person, but hell ... would you roll over and die if you were in the Palestinians shoes? Certainly you didn't when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour or when Al Quaeda hit the World Trade Centre.

                    Do the Jewish people need their own state, where they can live peacefully? YES!

                    Why do they need their own state? Religion is NOT an ethnic group. If the jews need their own state then surely the muslims should have theirs and the Christians should have theirs. Then we have a new issue as Jeruselum seems to be the home of all three religions so who has the right to claim that area? Wouldn't we then have wars about who was right and who was wrong?

                    I thought the issue about religion was "tolerence", and becomming an elite group "deserving of their own homeland" isn't practicing tolerance.

                    Has Israel enjoyed a sort of “special status” in light of the holocaust? Probably

                    Well they certainly play on it in a way that you don't see other countries doing ... the jews weren't the only victims of the war, they are simply the only ones who keep harping on about it.

                    Have they abused this “special status”? It sure looks like it

                    Seems that way here.

                    Is the USA finding it more and more difficult to justify it’s unconditional support of Israel since Sharon’s regime? I think so

                    I can't comment for America but it seems to me that they are becomming increasingly isolated and disliked around the world because of their stand with Israel.

                    Should Israel be placed under international pressure to change it’s policies? yes
                    Do I think that both the actions Palestinian suicide bombers and Israeli government are equally to blame? Yes
                    Is Israel the “victim” and Palestine the perpetrator? No
                    Are the people of Israel paying the price for the Israeli government’s actions (especially since Sharon)? I think so


                    Well, remember that they voted him in.

                    Do I hope that both sides come to their senses and live happily ever after? yes

                    I wouldn't be holding my breath over that but wouldn't it be nice to see peace around the world.

                    Enough for now ....



                    ADG
                    ADG
                    No makeovers please .....

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      .. the saga continues ...

                      On 14 May 1948 the State of Israel was proclaimed according to the UN partition plan (1947). Less than 24 hours later, the regular armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq invaded the country, forcing Israel to defend the sovereignty it had regained in its ancestral homeland.
                      I think that you really ought to consider the situation. This sovereignty you speak of was never "regained" as they never had it in the first place. Secondly, this proclamation of a state of Israel NEVER had the agreement of the indigents. It is not surpising that a war occurred and it is inaccurate to say it was unprovoked. If someone else decided that your state would be handed over to a third party I bet you'd fight too .. in fact if the state beside you was handed over to a third party I bet you'd fight there too. So I think that whilst you are right and Israel was attacked I do not feel it was unwarrented or unprovoked.

                      As for the other wars I can't comment except to ponder if they, too, were provoked as it seems that some like to ignore the provocation by Israel in order to tell a different story.




                      ADG
                      ADG
                      No makeovers please .....

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by AC_A340-500

                        Iceman:

                        America may not have supplied Israel of it’s nuclear capabilities, but it did supply them with the means of delivery (in form of missiles with adequate range).
                        I don't understand why you're trying to link the US with this. If it wasn't for French aid, Israel wouldn't have embarked on this program. Who cares about "means of delivery"? Why are you bringing this up? What's important is who gave them the first push, the technology and the know how and, most likely, some "means of delivery" as well.

                        Anyways, here are some articles outlining the history of the Israeli nuclear weapons program. Aside from the Shia News, the others are pretty balanced.

                        http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/...cs/0000296.php

                        http://www.gsinstitute.org/resources...s/isreal.shtml

                        http://nuketesting.enviroweb.org/hew...l/Isrhist.html

                        http://fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/nuke/

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by ADG
                          .. the saga continues ...

                          On 14 May 1948 the State of Israel was proclaimed according to the UN partition plan (1947). Less than 24 hours later, the regular armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq invaded the country, forcing Israel to defend the sovereignty it had regained in its ancestral homeland.
                          I think that you really ought to consider the situation. This sovereignty you speak of was never "regained" as they never had it in the first place. Secondly, this proclamation of a state of Israel NEVER had the agreement of the indigents. It is not surpising that a war occurred and it is inaccurate to say it was unprovoked. If someone else decided that your state would be handed over to a third party I bet you'd fight too .. in fact if the state beside you was handed over to a third party I bet you'd fight there too. So I think that whilst you are right and Israel was attacked I do not feel it was unwarrented or unprovoked.

                          As for the other wars I can't comment except to ponder if they, too, were provoked as it seems that some like to ignore the provocation by Israel in order to tell a different story.




                          ADG
                          ADG- This was in response to another post that said, "Israel has attacked so many nations, such as Iraq, Syriam etc..." I posted that just to show that Israel was the one being attacked, not the attacker.

                          About the holocoust- Yes, it happened 60 years ago, but it should never be forgotten. If we forget, we allow it to happen again. About them "harping" on about it, they have a right to. You would probably do the same of 6,000,000 OZs got murdered.
                          They got their land because of what happened to them. If the same thing happened to Christians or other groups they would probably also get proper compensation.
                          About the Palestinians- I lost all respect for them when CNN showed footage of Palestinians dancing in the streets on 9/11...
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                          Comment


                          • #28
                            ADG- This was in response to another post that said, "Israel has attacked so many nations, such as Iraq, Syriam etc..." I posted that just to show that Israel was the one being attacked, not the attacker.
                            I am aware of that, but I disagree. It's hardly right to claim to be the attacked when you are merely reaping the results of your own actions don't you think?

                            About them "harping" on about it, they have a right to. You would probably do the same of 6,000,000 OZs got murdered.
                            Again I disagree. Australia lost a whole generation of it's young men, including many of my own relatives (and I call them that because I am of an age that I would have remembered them and grown up with them had they lived). They died on foreign soil, every one of them a volunteer .. all there to protect the motherland and to free the opressed. I don't harp on incessantly about it, I don't expect special treatment because war robbed me of my family members. I remember them with respect and honour on the special days allocated for that. I remember their actions and I am grateful for their participation, they fought a just cause and they lost their life for it. I wonder how they would feel if they knew a single group of victims set themselves apart from the rest of us and expected special treatment even though most of them were not directly affected by it.

                            I know many jews lost loved ones and they deserve our sympathy for that .. but no more than anyone else who lost loved ones during that very same war. Remember also, that not only were the jews slaughtered, but the disabled and the homosexuals as well as anyone else the Nazis wished to kill.

                            20 million Russians .. I see you skipped over that .. am I to take it that you find the death of 20 million Russians irrelevant? Over 500,000 Americans died in that war as well. Not anywhere near as many as 5 million, but I'm willing to bet every single one of those deaths was felt as keenly as any single jewish death.

                            They got their land because of what happened to them. If the same thing happened to Christians or other groups they would probably also get proper compensation
                            If Israel was created as "compensation" for what occurred to them then Israel should be disbanded this instance. If this were true then Israel should sit in the middle of Germany, which obviously it doesn't. What did the Palestinians contribute to the holocaust? What was their involvement? Indeed, the area now known as Palestine was part of the British Territories, what part did Britain play in the holocaust that would require them to compensate the jews? They fought to free them, they were almost defeated in the war to rid the world of the Nazis .. if anything, the jews should be compensating the Brits and the Americans and the Australians/Kiwis/Canadians/ etc etc etc . for the sacrifices they made to free the jews.

                            If the same thing happened to Christians or other groups they would probably also get proper compensation.
                            I don't believe the Christians would ask for compensation in that instance but I have to say, where would you give them? Jeruselum is the home of Christianity .. as it is the home of Islam .. where would you give these people now that you've given it all to the Jews?

                            About the Palestinians- I lost all respect for them when CNN showed footage of Palestinians dancing in the streets on 9/11...
                            so rather than look at why these few Palistinians supposedly filmed immediately after 911 would feel that way you'll simply use it to justify a stand? 50+ years of occupation including harassment, opression and murder at the hands of someone hanging onto the skirttails of the USA wouldn't be enough to have some blaming the US?

                            Sure, being *pleased* about the 911 attacks is absolutely wrong, but then, so is occupation, opression and murder.





                            ADG
                            ADG
                            No makeovers please .....

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by ADG
                              ADG- This was in response to another post that said, "Israel has attacked so many nations, such as Iraq, Syriam etc..." I posted that just to show that Israel was the one being attacked, not the attacker.
                              I am aware of that, but I disagree. It's hardly right to claim to be the attacked when you are merely reaping the results of your own actions don't you think?
                              You mean the fact that Israel exists is for you a valid reason to launch a war of annihilation against them?
                              Thank you for making that clear once again, you would do well alongside Dr. Mengelle.

                              I know many jews lost loved ones and they deserve our sympathy for that .. but no more than anyone else who lost loved ones during that very same war. Remember also, that not only were the jews slaughtered, but the disabled and the homosexuals as well as anyone else the Nazis wished to kill.
                              Apparently not. You've been advocating (first at airliners.net and now here) the annihilation of Jews and applauding PLO and Hamas terrorism whenever Jews were killed as a result.


                              20 million Russians .. I see you skipped over that .. am I to take it that you find the death of 20 million Russians irrelevant? Over 500,000 Americans died in that war as well. Not anywhere near as many as 5 million, but I'm willing to bet every single one of those deaths was felt as keenly as any single jewish death.
                              Maybe because they aren't the issue here? Noone is claiming the Russians have no right to defend themselves the way you and others claim Israel cannot be allowed to defend itself against those wishing to destroy her...

                              Another fine way ADG expresses her opinion of right and wrong.
                              Right: Jews should be murdered, Israel destroyed
                              Wrong: Israel allowed to defend itself, Jews living in peace.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                You mean the fact that Israel exists is for you a valid reason to launch a war of annihilation against them?
                                Thank you for making that clear once again, you would do well alongside Dr. Mengelle.
                                You can misquote all you like, it won't change facts. Clearly you don't understand basic english as set out, which makes for an interesting discussion. Perhaps you'll let me know when you wish to be reasonable?

                                Apparently not. You've been advocating (first at airliners.net and now here) the annihilation of Jews and applauding PLO and Hamas terrorism whenever Jews were killed as a result.
                                It's clear you lack any basis for a realistic stand on your issue when you have to sink to dishonesty to try and prove your point.

                                You're points appear very clear...

                                You believe you are right and if anyone disagrees with you then you post lies in order to prove your point.

                                You believe that the lives of jews are more important then other lives.

                                Intersting and wrong on oh so many levels.




                                ADG
                                ADG
                                No makeovers please .....

                                Comment

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