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BBC World: "Israel's Secret Weapon" this weekend

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  • #31
    1948 War of Independance

    On 14 May 1948 the State of Israel was proclaimed according to the UN partition plan (1947). Less than 24 hours later, the regular armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq invaded the country, forcing Israel to defend the sovereignty it had regained in its ancestral homeland.
    Herpa:
    looks like your history book has a selective memory. Seems like you overlooked the issue of WHY the Arab states attacked the Israeli army in 1948. You make it sound like the Arabs were bored and had nothing better to do with their time. Feel free to find out WHY using the following link:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sta...eline/1948.stm

    Your history book also seems to be missing the years 1967 and 1982.

    1967:
    As you may or may not (choose to) recall, the Six-Day War was launched by Israel as a PRE-EMPTIVE strike against it’s neighbours, following an increase in tensions in the area between Israel and Arabs. In my opinion, the concept of launching a pre-emptive strike against a country is scary as hell. Imagine if the Cold War or the tensions between the Koreas would (or would have) culminated in a pre-emptive strike. Imagine if all countries felt at liberty to launch pre-emptive strikes against potential aggressors. Not exactly the best way to work toward peace or stability in a region, including the Middle-East. The Six-Days War was a clear demonstration of aggression by Israel, the effects of which are still present today. Clearly a step in the wrong direction. And certainly no argument for WMD!

    Add the fact that Israel, in direct violation of UN resolution 242, acquired territory during this war (some of which they still control), simply adds fuel to the already hostile situation.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sta...eline/1967.stm

    1973:
    The Yom-Kippur War was indeed launched by Arab states. But again you chose to ignore WHY they attacked. It was an attempt to get back their territory annexed by Israel 6 years earlier. The fact that you used this as part of your main argument to show that the Arab states were aggressive, is silly to put it mildly.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sta...eline/1973.stm

    1982:
    Israel, in an attempt to root out the PLO along the Lebanese border launched an attack to the North. Problem was, that they didn’t stop until they reached Beirut. Subsequently, a massacre on Sabra and Shatila took place on Palestinian refugees that made the My-Lai massacre look like a children’s party. Thousands of innocent men, women and children were killed.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sta...eline/1982.stm

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme...ma/1390979.stm

    I lost all respect for them when CNN showed footage of Palestinians dancing in the streets on 9/11...
    And finally Herpa, I clearly remember the footage that went around the world, of Palestinian men women and children celebrating in the streets of the occupied territories. I saw this footage on BBC, CNN and several German stations. In particular, I remember a Palestinian lady (a heavy-set woman with Coke-bottle glasses) dancing in front of a deli, along with some children. The reason that I so clearly remember that footage is because I had seen that EXACT SAME footage a few weeks earlier (yes, before 911) on German TV, (in connection with some other celebratory context). Not even a few days had passed, until the topic of “the footage of celebrating Palestinians taken out of context” was widespread, as many, many people in Germany, noticed the “recycled” footage (yes, this lady was quite unforgettable). Even local radio was talking about it. Not sure if this footage was supposed to be a form of slander against Palestinians, or just a mix-up, but it sure is interesting to see what kind of an effect it can have to sway sympathy in one direction or the other. The media as an effective tool – at it’s finest.

    (I just took the liberty of checking the net for stories related to those video clips. Seems like there are a number of theories, some of them far-fetched. However, I clearly remember seeing them before 911 and making a big fuss about it to my girlfriend as I saw them the second time around on the day of the attacks. What is for certain is that the footage came from Reuter’s news agency (subsequently sold to CNN and co.), which may explain why I saw them on German TV first. Who knows.)

    To clarify:
    Although I’m only coming down hard on Israel in this particular post, let me reiterate that both sides are to blame for the situation. I pointed out only Israel’s faults in an attempt to show that Israel is not the innocent victim here. Both sides need to accept the fact that huge mistakes and atrocities have been committed by both sides. To believe that one side is the victim and the other side is the perpetrator will fuel the conflict for generations to come.

    Also:
    I listed the BBC as the main source, as the BBC as a whole, seems to have no problems with criticizing both sides. The information can be found elsewhere as well, but I deliberately steered clear of sources that may be deemed biased (American/Israeli/Arabic) in one direction or the other.

    Comment


    • #32
      AC_A340-500, all your post are well said, I like the fact that you are not biased like herpa, you have explained the situation very well. I am glad you brought up the wars launched by Israel which I was about to bring up.

      Herpa:
      your views are very biased. I notice you selectively choose to add things and leave things out such as the other wars and reasons to why they are
      launched. The situation in the Middle East is very complicated which you have to see the perspectives of BOTH sides. Just as Israel is suffering, Palestinians are suffering a lot more. Israel is practically controlling their lives, they have no freedom. Israel destroys their homes, they only let them go out and get food at certain hours. Palestinian families don't have an income as they can't go to work. The Palestinians are isolated. It is like they are locked up in a cage, they use suicide bombings to try to breakthrough this cage for freedom. I think it is wrong having to use suicide bombings against innocent civilians, very disgusting. Israel is just as wrong launching rockets and destroying homes killings more Palestinians. I believe the only way to peace is for a change of BOTH leaders which means Sharon and Arafat with new ones. Hopefully we can get a cease fire from both sides and then we can go from there. Lebanon and Syria should also be included in peace talks to settle this whole dispute.
      Koninklijke Luchtvaart Maatschappij

      Comment


      • #33
        B757300:

        "I swear, based on some of the responses, this thread belongs on Airliners.net."

        Funny, I can say exactly the same thing about your responses.

        jwenting:

        "It's already forgotten I'm afraid.
        Especially by Europeans who now once again turn to antisemitism as an answer to their problems."

        And where exactly in Europe do you live? Quite frankly, I haven't seen any increase in antisemitism over the last 10/20 years and neither do I believe WWII and the holocaust has been forgotten. Sure, not all European countries remember the Holocaust in the same way for not all these countries have been affected in the same way (ie, Germany, Austria, England, Spain).

        "In the 1970s they betrayed Israel to safeguard the aupply of oil from the Arab states. Now they more or less openly ship weapons and explosives to the so-called Palestinians in order to kill more Jews for them."

        And just where do you get this info from? Sure, European organizations have been actively contributing to the Palestinian cause, but to suggest "Europeans are 'more or less' openly shipping weapons and explosives to kill more Jews for them" might be YOUR personal opinion on the matter, but this is NOT reality, its not even CLOSE to reality.

        "When synagogues in Brussels and Paris burn the police do nothing, when a brick is thrown through a window of a mosque a witchhunt for the perpatrators starts."

        Again, where do you get this obvious insider information? De Telegraaf?

        "Moroccan youths are not apprehended when they shout anti-Jewish slogans during the Dutch remembrance of the deaths of WW2, including the Jews who were deported to the deathcamps."

        It is exactly this kind of front-page, "De Telegraaf"-style reporting, that makes a minor incident committed by 6 or 7 fifteen-year-old "foreigners" in Amsterdam into something BIG which it ISN'T.

        "Fact remains that before Israel announced their nuclear weapons they were invaded by their neighbours every few years. Since the announcement they haven't been invaded once."

        Yes, we can clearly see what effect nuclear weapons have on suicide terrorists.

        "So unless you mean by "upsets the stability" that the very existence of Israel upsets the stability in the region and you'd rather see the country detroyed and its people slaughtered then you're in the wrong."

        Why don't you just ask the question first (on what AC_A340-500 really means) BEFORE giving your opinion on what YOU BELIEVE he means? It would make discussion on this forum so much easier!


        "You mean the fact that Israel exists is for you a valid reason to launch a war of annihilation against them? Thank you for making that clear once again, you would do well alongside Dr. Mengelle."

        How the heck can you first ask a question (first phrase) only to give your opinion (second phrase) without even waiting for ADG to answer?
        Don't jump to conclusions, please.

        "Apparently not. You've been advocating (first at airliners.net and now here) the annihilation of Jews and applauding PLO and Hamas terrorism whenever Jews were killed as a result."

        This is absolutely inacceptable, jwenting. Please, either copy-and-paste or quote where ADG in this forum has been advocating the annihilating of Jews!

        "Another fine way ADG expresses her opinion of right and wrong.
        Right: Jews should be murdered, Israel destroyed"

        You really have a reading-and-understanding problem. I wouldn't really care if it wasn't for the fact that, because of your little comprehension-problem, you are INSULTING other users.


        As you might have guessed, it is the way you prefer to discuss (both here as on a.net) which I really don't like. Not only do you include sporadic incidents in your posts as if they were normal throughout Europe, you also JUMP TO CONCLUSIONS on other users opinions and what YOU BELIEVE they either MEAN or THINK.

        If you don't know for sure either what another user means or believes, ASK him/her and DON'T JUMP TO CONCLUSIONS accusing other users without even knowing their opinion.

        Comment


        • #34
          About the Israelis: I know many wonderful Israeli people who now live in the US, and the thought that these people are attacked constantly on buses or in shops just makes me even more mad. The Israeli people don't want fighting just like the Palestinians don't want fighting. I remain convinced, however, the the only way to get rid of the problem in Israel is for Hamas and other groups like Hamas to be destroyed.
          Fly Raleigh-Durham International, with direct flights on Air Canada, AirTran, American Airlines, American Eagle, America West, Continental Airlines, Continental Express, Delta Airlines, Delta Connection, jetBlue, Northwest Airlines, Southwest Airlines, United Express and US Airways to:

          ATL, AUS, BWI, BOS, CHS, CLT, MDW, ORD, CVG, CLE, DFW, DTW, FLL, BDL, HOU, IND, LAS, LAX, LGW, MEM, MIA, MSP, BNA, EWR, MSY, JFK, LGA, ORF, MCO, PHL, PHX, PIT, STL, SLC, TPA, YYZ, DCA and IAD.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by herpa2003
            About the Israelis: I know many wonderful Israeli people who now live in the US, and the thought that these people are attacked constantly on buses or in shops just makes me even more mad. The Israeli people don't want fighting just like the Palestinians don't want fighting. I remain convinced, however, the the only way to get rid of the problem in Israel is for Hamas and other groups like Hamas to be destroyed.
            You can say the same for Palestinians. There are lots of nice Palestinian people, I feel sorry for them since they really don't have a home to go to being prisoned in their own land by Israel. I feel sorry for the Jews too being frightened to do their groceries etc...

            Destroying Hamas will not solve anything. It will only escalate the violence. You can not forget, Hamas is not the only group, there is also Fatah and Jihad. You cannot destory these groups, it will only create more violence and anger a lot of Palestinians.

            The only way to peace is a change of leaders from both sides, create a cease fire, and discuss what EACH side WANTS until a comprimise has been reached. This is the only to get peace.

            These terrorists/freedom fighters, whatever you want to call them don't carry out attacks for fun. They do this out of suffering, they have a message to be said but everyone ignores them. Nobody is helping the Palestinians. There is always something they want to be done by doing these attacks. It's not like they kill a person for fun or feel like it.
            If the people continue to suffer and not get any help, they will continue to attack. This is the only way to solve the problem.
            Koninklijke Luchtvaart Maatschappij

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by herpa2003
              I remain convinced, however, the the only way to get rid of the problem in Israel is for Hamas and other groups like Hamas to be destroyed.
              If there's anything history has learned us, is that one cannot erradicate (or destroy, as you call it) terrorist organizations! Look at Northern Ireland, look at France and Spain. They've been having this problem for ages and have fought against it with all means, both legal as illegal (killing of suspected terrorists, etc.). Sure, you can get/kill all ACTUAL Hamas leaders and terrorists, but that doesn't give you ANY certainty new people will take their place in 2 or 3 months time. Taking into account the amount of suicide attacks already taken place, we can be sure in no-time a whole bunch of new people will get organised and call themselves Hamas II.

              Look at Israel right now. All that happens is they go around and around in circles: one side attacks the other, the other side attacks back to retaliate, then the other attacks again to retaliate that attack again, and it only leads to more death!

              Like someone already stated above, if you want to erradicate terrorism, you first have to look for the cause or causes. Even 2 years after 911 this hasn't really happened yet in the US! How on earth do you want to 'Fight Terrorism" if you don't even know WHY your enemy is fighting you?

              Look at whats happening in Iraq right now! The actual situation in Iraq is VERY unstable and the Iraqis are getting more fed-up with the Coalition day by day. Such an unstable situation is THE breeding ground for Anti-Coalition Forces Organizations, call them Rebels, Freedom Fighters or Terrorists. The longer the Iraqis are without water, electricity, jobs, medical supplies, etc., more simpathy the Iraqis will have for these Rebels, Freedom Fighters or Terrorists Organizations and for their cause. Fighting them by simply destroying them will only aggravate the situation.

              Comment


              • #37
                Actually, I think the Palestinians kill because they hate Jews/Christians. I heard on MSNBC today that the Palestinians in their cease-fire agreement did not want to use the word "Israel" in the treaty. Instead, they wanted Israel put down as, "The Zionist Enemy." A lot of these killings are based on religious grounds. People who claim to be muslims want to kill the "infidels" and "Zionists." Real muslims would never do this, it is a discgrace to all of Islam that these attacks are carried out in the name of Islam.
                Fly Raleigh-Durham International, with direct flights on Air Canada, AirTran, American Airlines, American Eagle, America West, Continental Airlines, Continental Express, Delta Airlines, Delta Connection, jetBlue, Northwest Airlines, Southwest Airlines, United Express and US Airways to:

                ATL, AUS, BWI, BOS, CHS, CLT, MDW, ORD, CVG, CLE, DFW, DTW, FLL, BDL, HOU, IND, LAS, LAX, LGW, MEM, MIA, MSP, BNA, EWR, MSY, JFK, LGA, ORF, MCO, PHL, PHX, PIT, STL, SLC, TPA, YYZ, DCA and IAD.

                Comment


                • #38
                  About the Israelis: I know many wonderful Israeli people who now live in the US, and the thought that these people are attacked constantly on buses or in shops just makes me even more mad. The Israeli people don't want fighting just like the Palestinians don't want fighting. I remain convinced, however, the the only way to get rid of the problem in Israel is for Hamas and other groups like Hamas to be destroyed.
                  I agree about Hamas but have to point out that there are documented incidents where Israeli civilians have created mobs and attacked Palestinians even killing children. Keep focussed. There are problems on both sides and extremists on both sides, even in the leadership.

                  The only issue with destroying Hamas is that the Israelis are totally out of control. They use the murder of Hamas members to justify public attacks that hurt/kill many, these are no more than revenge attacks. They can be nothing else.

                  and Herpa, many in Israel want the muslim infadel wiped off the face of the earth. Of course the TERROISTS want the zionist invaders killed because you forget the fact that they are invaders. In the eyes of those who lived there in 1947 the land was stolen (remember, it was a decision made by an organisation that had no authority to make it) from them. And since 1947 the Israelis have found excuse after excuse after excuse to expand the territories.






                  ADG
                  ADG
                  No makeovers please .....

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by herpa2003
                    Actually, I think the Palestinians kill because they hate Jews/Christians.
                    You have made some progress, herpa2003. You believe the Palestinians kill because they hate the Jews/Christians. Good thinking. 10 points for you.

                    Final question, for 10,000 points: WHY do you believe the Palestinians hate Jews/Christians?

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      I think that they hate Jews/Christians because they are force-fed nothing but propaganda and lies. Lots of radical "muslim" leaders read the Quaran, and think that it tells them to "kill the infidels." These leaders are dangerous to every society, be it American or Palestinian. They get some 20 year old kid to believe what they are teaching, send him to flight school, and you have another 9/11. Or, more often, they use their propaganda and get people who listen to it to blow themselves up on buses or in malls.
                      Fly Raleigh-Durham International, with direct flights on Air Canada, AirTran, American Airlines, American Eagle, America West, Continental Airlines, Continental Express, Delta Airlines, Delta Connection, jetBlue, Northwest Airlines, Southwest Airlines, United Express and US Airways to:

                      ATL, AUS, BWI, BOS, CHS, CLT, MDW, ORD, CVG, CLE, DFW, DTW, FLL, BDL, HOU, IND, LAS, LAX, LGW, MEM, MIA, MSP, BNA, EWR, MSY, JFK, LGA, ORF, MCO, PHL, PHX, PIT, STL, SLC, TPA, YYZ, DCA and IAD.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by herpa2003
                        I think that they hate Jews/Christians because they are force-fed nothing but propaganda and lies. Lots of radical "muslim" leaders read the Quaran, and think that it tells them to "kill the infidels." These leaders are dangerous to every society, be it American or Palestinian. They get some 20 year old kid to believe what they are teaching, send him to flight school, and you have another 9/11. Or, more often, they use their propaganda and get people who listen to it to blow themselves up on buses or in malls.
                        Actually, I lied to you. Knowing WHY the Palestinians 'hate Jews/Christians' isn't a 10,000 points question, it's the $ 1,000,000 question!

                        Your shot at it (forgive the expression) is worth 10 cents, IMO.

                        Yes, there is propaganda, yes there are lies and yes, there is radicalism. But these 3 ingredients wouldn't even be sufficient for a large demonstration. You need a bit more than that to get some 'real' terrorism. You need poor living conditions, no medium or long-term possibilities, complete insecurity and inexistant international interest to be able to organise a decent terrorist organization. Throw in some humiliation, deportations, indiscriminate killling and illegal occupation over a period over various decades and you'll have the suicide 'freedom fighter' volunteers line up to get your organisation going and fight for the 'good cause'.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by AC_A340-500

                          Your history book also seems to be missing the years 1967 and 1982.

                          1967:
                          As you may or may not (choose to) recall, the Six-Day War was launched by Israel as a PRE-EMPTIVE strike against it’s neighbours, following an increase in tensions in the area between Israel and Arabs.
                          AC,

                          Your own history book seems to be missing a few pages. The Six Days war was a reaction to over 5 years of Syrian backed Palestinian rocket attacks launched against Israel from the Golan heights. Unless of course you consider being bombed by rockets as merely increasing tension.

                          The pure fact is that every military action taken by Israel has been in reaction to one or more attacks against Israel, and usually only after a pattern of such attacks. Israel has attacked aggressively in such cases and at times there have been civilian casualties, but such is the nature of war. All nations that have waged war have caused casualties amongst the civilian population that might have been avoided. The US and UK were themselves guilty of this in WWII with the bombing of Hamburg, Dresden, and Warsaw, none of which had much military value.

                          For myself as an outside observer of this conflict the disturbing thing about the Palestinians is that they consistently target civilians in their attacks and almost never attack military targets. For that reason alone I would have to say that any action by Israel is justified.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            AC340500 wrote:

                            << Sadly, we never really get to hear the underlying cause for terrorism: The MOTIVE. Even after 911, no one in the press was willing to talk about motive. Attention was centred around the details, beginning with the terrorists, planes, buildings, some bad guys named Al-Quaeda – but never a motive. The question of WHY the terrorists did what they did never surfaced. >>

                            Well, the question is not asked much it is true. However when it is asked, I see many many apologists of all stripes and nationalities attempting to "explain" the grievances. Please Spare us.

                            Bin Laden's statements speak extremely well for themselves and his movement. They are the embodiement of sick Islamofascism and intollerance.

                            Have you asked yourself "WHY" the Taliban destroyed the ancient Budhist Statues in Afghanistan? What "arrogant" acts were those statues guilty of?

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by schoenorama
                              Originally posted by herpa2003
                              I think that they hate Jews/Christians because they are force-fed nothing but propaganda and lies. Lots of radical "muslim" leaders read the Quaran, and think that it tells them to "kill the infidels." These leaders are dangerous to every society, be it American or Palestinian. They get some 20 year old kid to believe what they are teaching, send him to flight school, and you have another 9/11. Or, more often, they use their propaganda and get people who listen to it to blow themselves up on buses or in malls.
                              Actually, I lied to you. Knowing WHY the Palestinians 'hate Jews/Christians' isn't a 10,000 points question, it's the $ 1,000,000 question!

                              Your shot at it (forgive the expression) is worth 10 cents, IMO.

                              Yes, there is propaganda, yes there are lies and yes, there is radicalism. But these 3 ingredients wouldn't even be sufficient for a large demonstration. You need a bit more than that to get some 'real' terrorism. You need poor living conditions, no medium or long-term possibilities, complete insecurity and inexistant international interest to be able to organise a decent terrorist organization. Throw in some humiliation, deportations, indiscriminate killling and illegal occupation over a period over various decades and you'll have the suicide 'freedom fighter' volunteers line up to get your organisation going and fight for the 'good cause'.
                              Until the terrorism started in earnest the "Palestinians" were some of the most prosperous people in the middle east.
                              But for 2 generations now they've diverted all their effort into the destruction of Israel leaving no time and money for such basic things as growing food or building homes.
                              They brought it upon themselves...

                              And there is no illegal occupation, unless you consider the theft of the West Bank by Jordan in 1948 to be legal...

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by cicadajet

                                Well, the question is not asked much it is true. However when it is asked, I see many many apologists of all stripes and nationalities attempting to "explain" the grievances. Please Spare us.
                                If to you, trying to find an explanation for the reason of terrorrism equals to apologising these acts, you are NEVER going to erradicate it. Stop thinking in such a 'black-or-white' way and you might actually get somewhere.

                                Terrorism isn't something which was invented on 911. Unfortunately, it has been 'around' for ages and many have tried to erradicate it simply by killing the terrorists and all they have achieved is the complete opposite effect.

                                Originally posted by jwenting
                                Until the terrorism started in earnest the "Palestinians" were some of the most prosperous people in the middle east. But for 2 generations now they've diverted all their effort into the destruction of Israel leaving no time and money for such basic things as growing food or building homes..
                                I see you have conveniently ignored my earlier replies to you. Nice.

                                Anyway, you state the Palestinians were some of the more prosperous people in the Middle East, but since they have diverted their effort to the destruction of Israel. they have no time or money left to grown food or buy houses!

                                My question to you: how on earth can someone get such a distorted view on reality? Don't you know that to be able to grow food, one first needs land, land they have lost, been deported from or otherwise denied access to? Don't you know that to be able to build houses one equally needs land, land they have lost, been deported from or otherwise denied access to?

                                Originally posted by jwenting
                                They brought it upon themselves..
                                WHAT did they bring upon themselves? Being treated like shit by those that in their opinion, illegally occupy their homeland? The Nazis occupied Holland illegally for 5 years and I still have to see any member of the Dutch Resistance being called a Terrorist!

                                Comment

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