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BBC World: "Israel's Secret Weapon" this weekend

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  • #46
    JWenting wrote
    And there is no illegal occupation
    How do you mean there is no illegal occupation? Why do you think the settlements are called settlements, and not villages/towns. A settlement already implies that it is on foreign land, in this case on the land of the Palestinians. Just look it up at www.dictionary.com. Its definition of a settlement is ."Establishment, as of a person in a business or of people IN A NEW REGION".
    http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=settlement


    JWenting wrote
    such basic things as growing food or building homes
    Actually, they are building houses. However, whenever Israel sees fit they destroy a few with their bulldozers (sp?).
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story...927780,00.html
    http://www.ccmep.org/hotnews/israesl011502.html

    With regard to making food, most of the land that can sustain any meaningful agriculture is inaccesible. Either a settlement is build over it, or it fals into a border area. A lot of the land has also been MADE bare. A lot of these Israeli settlement have excellent irrigation draining the scarse water away from the Palestinians. This would not be completely bad if the water were used sensibly, but it is not just used sensibly. A lot if also used in pools, to sprinkle the lawn and to wash cars.
    http://mondediplo.com/focus/mideast/question-3-2-2
    http://www.prairienet.org/cpt/archiv...ug98/0011.html

    Cicadajet
    I see many many apologists of all stripes and nationalities attempting to "explain" the grievances
    You may not like what they are saying, or the way they are saying it, but they are making comments that deserve listening too.
    Please visit my website! http://www.schipholspotter.com/

    Don't make me use uppercase...

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    • #47
      WHAT did they bring upon themselves? Being treated like **** by those that in their opinion, illegally occupy their homeland? The Nazis occupied Holland illegally for 5 years and I still have to see any member of the Dutch Resistance being called a Terrorist!
      There is no doubt in anyone's mind that the palestinians who blow themselves up on buses or in shops are terrorists. Everyone knows that. You talk about the Palestinians being treated like ****, what about the Israelis? They get a new attack practically every week! Even school buses are targeted. These attacks are not being done by "freedom fighters," they are being done by terrorists.
      Fly Raleigh-Durham International, with direct flights on Air Canada, AirTran, American Airlines, American Eagle, America West, Continental Airlines, Continental Express, Delta Airlines, Delta Connection, jetBlue, Northwest Airlines, Southwest Airlines, United Express and US Airways to:

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      • #48
        Originally posted by herpa2003
        WHAT did they bring upon themselves? Being treated like **** by those that in their opinion, illegally occupy their homeland? The Nazis occupied Holland illegally for 5 years and I still have to see any member of the Dutch Resistance being called a Terrorist!
        There is no doubt in anyone's mind that the palestinians who blow themselves up on buses or in shops are terrorists. Everyone knows that. You talk about the Palestinians being treated like ****, what about the Israelis? They get a new attack practically every week! Even school buses are targeted. These attacks are not being done by "freedom fighters," they are being done by terrorists.
        Call them whatever you want. We already know what they are doing. But you have to ask yourself WHY are they doing it. They are doing it because of the many reasons that have already been mentioned here which you seem to ingnore. schoenorama is summing it up nicely.
        Koninklijke Luchtvaart Maatschappij

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        • #49
          Your own history book seems to be missing a few pages. The Six Days war was a reaction to over 5 years of Syrian backed Palestinian rocket attacks launched against Israel from the Golan heights. Unless of course you consider being bombed by rockets as merely increasing tension.
          Freightdogg:
          While it is true that they were being attacked from time to time from the Golan Heights by Syria (not like Israel wasn‘t firing in their direction too!), you seem to be overlooking the fact that the Golan Heights were part of only one of the three countries attacked in those 6 days. Furthermore, the Golan Heights make up about 5% of the land area that was attacked and annexed in the 6 Days War. And finally, it wasn‘t just an attack to put the „enemy‘s“ weapons out of commission, it was also a blatant attempt to gain territory, some of which Israel still controls. This is illegal, under international law.
          In those few short days, 11,000 Egyptians, 6,000 Jordanians and 1,000 Syrians along with 700 Israelis died. Israel took over the Golan Heights, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip along with all of Jerusalem and Sinai. So far, they only gave back Sinai.

          The pure fact is that every military action taken by Israel has been in reaction to one or more attacks against Israel, and usually only after a pattern of such attacks.
          No, this is precisely where you are misinformed. Go back and check the links that I provided earlier. Surely their actions weren’t all unprovoked, but many were, especially the 6 Day War (where the threat was based on speculation of a military buildup, and not an attack– leading to an unacceptable pre-emptive strike), and allowing the ruthless killings in Lebanon in the early ‘80’s.

          Israel has attacked aggressively in such cases and at times there have been civilian casualties, but such is the nature of war. All nations that have waged war have caused casualties amongst the civilian population that might have been avoided. The US and UK were themselves guilty of this in WWII with the bombing of Hamburg, Dresden, and Warsaw, none of which had much military value.
          How does this justify that Israel’s actions? Simply shrugging it off as a “consequence of war” is a little weak. It leaves the door open for justifying a wide range of atrocities.

          For myself as an outside observer of this conflict the disturbing thing about the Palestinians is that they consistently target civilians in their attacks and almost never attack military targets.
          Glad you raised this point: About half of the Israelis killed in the past 3 years have been MILITARY targets. Sadly, the press seldom includes those facts though. Notice that in the past 3 years over 2000(!) Palestinians were killed (over 380 of whom were children) vs. 350 Israelis died (of whom 165 were military, security forces). More Palestinian children died than Israelis in total!

          http://www.btselem.org/English/Stati...ies_Tables.asp
          http://www.btselem.org/English/Stati...ors_Killed.asp
          http://www.btselem.org/English/Stati...Fatalities.asp

          Here’s a different source:
          http://www.mepc.org/public_asp/resou...ts/03_01_2.asp

          Well, the question is not asked much it is true. However when it is asked, I see many many apologists of all stripes and nationalities attempting to "explain" the grievances. Please Spare us.
          cicadajet, I‘ll respond to what I think you were trying to say:
          I think that we can all agree that terrorists aren‘t exactly the nicest people around. However there seems to be a lot of people who are of the opinion that „terrorism“ consists of inherently evil people with nothing to better to do (ie. no MOTIVE). We hear the word „terrorist“, and immediately close our minds to the question of „why“.

          In response to your mentioning the Bin Laden tapes:
          Assuming the Bin Laden tapes are real, do you really believe that the press would have played the full length of the tapes? Or do you think that only the sensationalist parts (that sent shivers down each and every one of our backs) were made public? I for one speculate that the parts on the tapes about the „Western world‘s selfish attitude toward other countries“, wouldn’t have made the 6 o’clock news.
          Perhaps the motive and drive behind „terrorists“ actions need to be considered if we genuinely wish to stop terrorism in the future. Perhaps they‘re upset because we so dogmatically assume that our decisions and those of our governments are the right ones, especially in regards to geo-politics. I can imagine that our „us versus them“ mentality can be pretty frustrating when they‘re the ones drinking from puddles, while we‘re living in relative luxury, looking out for „number one“.

          An American friend of mine said the following to me a few months ago:
          „I would go and fight with fury and vigor, if my country called on me to do so!“

          Maybe we’ll just have to accept the fact, that people from other countries just might be willing to do the same, using any means available to them. Especially if they’re pissed-off at us. Surely they don’t carry out such terrible acts because they are bored or because they’ve run out of SSRI medication.

          Comment


          • #50
            AC- Your casualty numbers are off. A lot more than 395 Israelis have died in the past few years.

            Casualties from 27 September 2000 through 19 June 2003

            Total Israeli- 787
            Total Palestinian- 2331
            Female Israeli- 247
            Female Palestinian- 107
            Palestinian Non-Combatants killed by Israelis- 866
            Israeli Non-Combatants killed by Palestinians- 606
            Palestinian Combatants killed by Israelis- 1063
            Israeli Soldiers Killed by Palestinians-165

            As you can see, the Palestinians have killed 165 soldiers while killing 606 Israelis. This is far below half. However, Most of the Palestinians killed were combatants. (Source- http://www.ict.org.il)
            Fly Raleigh-Durham International, with direct flights on Air Canada, AirTran, American Airlines, American Eagle, America West, Continental Airlines, Continental Express, Delta Airlines, Delta Connection, jetBlue, Northwest Airlines, Southwest Airlines, United Express and US Airways to:

            ATL, AUS, BWI, BOS, CHS, CLT, MDW, ORD, CVG, CLE, DFW, DTW, FLL, BDL, HOU, IND, LAS, LAX, LGW, MEM, MIA, MSP, BNA, EWR, MSY, JFK, LGA, ORF, MCO, PHL, PHX, PIT, STL, SLC, TPA, YYZ, DCA and IAD.

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            • #51
              Some more info (These charts were last updated MAy 21,2003)











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              ATL, AUS, BWI, BOS, CHS, CLT, MDW, ORD, CVG, CLE, DFW, DTW, FLL, BDL, HOU, IND, LAS, LAX, LGW, MEM, MIA, MSP, BNA, EWR, MSY, JFK, LGA, ORF, MCO, PHL, PHX, PIT, STL, SLC, TPA, YYZ, DCA and IAD.

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              • #52
                Don't bother Herpa, the supporters of these "freedom fighters" will never accept unbiassed evidence that doesn't support their point of view.

                All they're out to show is what bad people the Jews are and how the Palestinians are doing the world a favour by finishing the work Hitler and Stalin started.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Why do all you people have to complain about Israel all the time? It's not their fault that the Palestinians don't bend over and take it up the a$$ like we expect all oppressed and occupied peoples to. And it takes real herosim to jump in a fully-armed tank or helicopter and advance on a bunch of stone-throwing kids and teenagers. You know, I bet those stones would hurt!
                  AIRIGAMI.NET
                  http://www.airigami.net - The next generation of paper airliner modeling.

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                  • #54
                    herpa:
                    I'm glad you gave your source of the statistics you listed. The board members of the ICT (also the publishers of the homepage that your statistics are from) are:

                    -Shabtai Shavit Chairman,
                    Board of Directors, former director of the Israeli Intelligence Agency (Mossad)

                    -Uriel Reichman President of the Interdisciplinary Center Herzliya

                    -Aharon Scherf Former director of Israel’s Foreign Affairs Division and senior official in prime minister’s office

                    Nonetheless, I took the liberty of finding a third, (hopefully) unbiased source. This seems to be a comprehensive summary of statistics and activities, with a fairly neutral board of directors: http://www.mepc.org/public_asp/main/main.asp

                    Indeed, the numbers are more inline with yours. Nonetheless, total deaths are a 3-1 ratio between Palestinians and Israelis (and don't forget, there are twice as many Israelis as Palestinians in the area, so the per-capita death rate of Palestinians is closer to 7-fold!).



                    All they're out to show is what bad people the Jews are and how the Palestinians are doing the world a favour by finishing the work Hitler and Stalin started.
                    dear jwenting,
                    Those are your words, and your words only. In this thread there are those who are pro, those who are against and those who are moderates. I have seen good arguments for both sides. Good arguments by people who have made an effort to voice their opinions and convictions. Even though I may not agree with Herpa, and Freightdogg on this issue, we ALL still made an effort to look at the points that the other side presented, and to try to argue against it (based on facts, where ever possible). Nonetheless we always respected each others opinions, and responded with respect. Maybe I learned a thing or two that didn't know before, maybe those on the other side did as well. One thing I did learn is that this is a very complicated issue. An issue that is not black and not white. An issue where people on both sides are dying, most of the time due to factors that are out of their control.
                    jwenting, in my opinion, you are way out of line suggesting that those who don't agree with you are like supporters of Hitler and Stalin. I have friends of many types of cultures and races, including a Jewish friend, Michael. The reason that I resent your statement, is the same reason that I can argue the points that I do, with a clear conscience: It's because I learned many of the points that I argue from him. And there are many Jews who feel the same way about the situation in Israel/Palestine.
                    When I go to have a beer with Michael, it's no different than when I drink beer with may friend Sukhi who is East Indian, or Markus who is German. Race/culture are not issues that dictate whether I'm friends with someone or not. That's why I'm so upset at your naive, ignorant statement. You made is sound like anyone who doesn't agree with you is no better than the likes of Hitler and Stalin. That type of mud-slinging is just unacceptable in a forum, where most make an effort to show respect. I suspect that you're still fairly young, so I'm not going to make a bigger issue out of it, but remember there will always be people with opinions and perspectives different from your own. And never let your emotions gain control of your mouth (or your fingers) when trying to discuss sensitive issues.

                    _______________

                    Reason can run all it wants, but it will never catch up to ignorance.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by jwenting
                      Don't bother Herpa, the supporters of these "freedom fighters" will never accept unbiassed evidence that doesn't support their point of view.

                      All they're out to show is what bad people the Jews are and how the Palestinians are doing the world a favour by finishing the work Hitler and Stalin started.
                      This is quite possibly the most ignorant and insulting post I've seen in awhile. I don't know what you were thinking when you posted this...
                      Earl From Regina

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by jwenting
                        Don't bother Herpa, the supporters of these "freedom fighters" will never accept unbiassed evidence that doesn't support their point of view.
                        Unbiassed evidence??? So when info published by a former Mossad Director and a senior official in Israeli prime minister’s office are unbiassed, then what would be your definition of biassed?

                        Originally posted by jwenting
                        All they're out to show is what bad people the Jews are and how the Palestinians are doing the world a favour by finishing the work Hitler and Stalin started.
                        Your ability to distort what people have actually written and to insult these same people while doing so really amazes me. If JetPhotos.net would have a Disrespected Users Lists, you would certainly be on mine!

                        ---------
                        "The abuse being directed at anyone who dares to criticise Israel is reaching McCarthyite proportions" -- (Robert Fisk, 'I am being vilified for telling the truth about Palestinians'), The Independent, December 13, 2000

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Myblock
                          This is quite possibly the most ignorant and insulting post I've seen in awhile. I don't know what you were thinking when you posted this...
                          Scroll back to Page 2 where he's been saying similar things comparing another user with Dr Mengele!


                          Originally posted by jwenting
                          Originally posted by herpa2003
                          First of all, no one will ever forget the holocoust much like no one will ever forget 9/11-It shouldn't be forgotten. If you forget about it, you let it happen again. 6 million people killed is nothing to forget about. Being almost entirely wiped out isn't "playing" the vitcim-they were the vitctims.
                          It's already forgotten I'm afraid.
                          Especially by Europeans who now once again turn to antisemitism as an answer to their problems.
                          'Funny' that the one person that doesn't even know how to spell the name of Dr. Josef Mengele (one L) is you, jwenting, yet you accuse your fellow Europeans of having forgotten about the Holocaust!

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            this post is just begging for some dancing hamsters...

                            and a word to the wise... if your gonna crack on someone's spelling, please make sure your posts are grammatically correct... or else you look like an idiot.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by nyc_spotter
                              this post is just begging for some dancing hamsters...

                              and a word to the wise... if your gonna crack on someone's spelling, please make sure your posts are grammatically correct... or else you look like an idiot.
                              As a 'foreigner' I believe I expressed myself pretty well in YOUR language.

                              The person I critisized over his spelling made an error in the spelling of the name of a person. Last names don't change in different languages, unlike normal conversation. Mr Mengele's name is ALWAYS written the same, be it in Spanish, German, Russian or English.

                              If you have a problem with the grammar of my postings, perhaps you prefer to continue this discussion in either Dutch or Spanish.
                              So what is it 'going to'' be?

                              Your turn.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                This is comical in a very sad way.

                                When someone runs down the street and kills dozens of innocent bystanders... is there a great need to find out what that person's "motivation" is? You look into it..but putting that person down is the immediate issue.

                                I saw the Palestinians dancing and prancing and undulating with joy when 3000 people were murdered in New York. That tells me a lot. It tells me they are savages.

                                No doubt US Military Bases in Saudi Arabia are a provaction. None the less, I am extremely disinterested in "understanding" - and by extension accomodating- mass murders and jihadists.

                                Chasing down an "ISM" enemy is the word game of the current US Admin..which have their reasons.

                                Bin Laden is hardly a "poor" 3rd world person...rebeling against oppression. On the contrary, one could conclude all that (Saudi) money and affluence, fuels the violence.

                                I'm in favor of drawing up a map of the middle east and making it clear which places will disappear should WMD be used on the US...

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