looking for a challenge?

[Greg]

WW2 was spread over quite a few years whereas 9/11 was one day. It has profoundly affected many aspects of our lives from spotting to trips (my cruise to the Caribbean) to the economy. A good friend of mine was in the Pentagon and it has profoundly affected him and his life. He wasn't injured but physiologically he isn't who he was on 9/10/01 and before.

[Katamarino]

Again, even though WWII was spread out, look at events like the Blitz and the razing of Dresden - huge huge civilian loss of life in equally short periods. Or maybe the attacks on Nagasaki and Hiroshima - they were in rather a short period and caused rather greater loss of civilian life. They could in one way be considered terrorist attacks (and I am going by a definition of the word - I personally consider they were nescessary to quickly end the conflict and establish a worldwide fear of the weapons) as the very idea of them was to instill such terror into the nation that surrender would be inevitable. AGAIN, I think that they WERE necessary, lets not turn the debate round to that!

[JeffinDEN]

The difference is on 9-11 we were not at war like any of the instances you mentioned.

[Katamarino]

And does that make the deaths any more tragic to those involved?

[JeffinDEN]

Those involved probably never knew what hit them.

[AmyB]

And does that make the deaths any more tragic to those involved?

It seems that some people are mistaking Americans noting that this was the worst tragedy to happen to OUR country as us noting this because we are elitists.

That persons from other parts of the world can empathize with what happened on 9-11 goes unsaid...of course the entire world was effected by it. Just as we were effected by what happened in Europe during WWII. But I would never say that I completely "feel" what happened to the Jews during that time simply because I did not live it. There is only so much true understanding a person can have for a tragedy that has taken place in a land away from your own to a people that is not your own. I look at what happened during WWII and it sickens and saddens me...and I would not say that those deaths were any less tragic than what happened during 9-11. However, it doesn't hit the heart of me as closely as 9-11 did simply because this is my homeland...my people...and it happened here.

We are all humans so we can all understand the HUMAN tragedy that has taken place during many points in history, but events such as 9-11 and the Holocost hit the nation and the citizens who were closest to it's tragedy the hardest.

[Katamarino]

Those involved probably never knew what hit them.

What a childish response. So that makes it all ok does it? An event isn't tragic as long as the people killed didn't know about it. To continue the event we're using - what about the people burnt to death in the fires afterwards? Blown up enough to bleed to death? Dead through the long process of radiation poisoning? Don't give me crappy little comments like that.

Amy, as I have already stated, I understand completely how the Twin Towers tragedy would affect Americans the most. (Obviously, with the exception of the many many foreign nationals who lost close friend and loved ones...). That isn't what I have been arguing. The discussion shifted some time ago to whether it could be considered the worst thing that happened to the USA at all, and a point was then made by some one that "most of the people we lost were lawful, fighting combatants. The civilians lost on 9/11 weren't." as well as "WW2 was spread over quite a few years whereas 9/11 was one day.". I pointed out, of course using WWII as the example, that this absolutely wasn't the case to the majority of combatants. Jeff then arrived So you see, I wasn't arguing the effect of the Twin Towers on different nations at all.

[AmyB]

Those involved probably never knew what hit them.

What a childish response. So that makes it all ok does it? An event isn't tragic as long as the people killed didn't know about it. To continue the event we're using - what about the people burnt to death in the fires afterwards? Blown up enough to bleed to death? Dead through the long process of radiation poisoning? Don't give me crappy little comments like that.

Amy, as I have already stated, I understand completely how the Twin Towers tragedy would affect Americans the most. (Obviously, with the exception of the many many foreign nationals who lost close friend and loved ones...). That isn't what I have been arguing. The discussion shifted some time ago to whether it could be considered the worst thing that happened to the USA at all, and a point was then made by some one that "most of the people we lost were lawful, fighting combatants. The civilians lost on 9/11 weren't." as well as "WW2 was spread over quite a few years whereas 9/11 was one day.". I pointed out, of course using WWII as the example, that this absolutely wasn't the case to the majority of combatants. Jeff then arrived So you see, I wasn't arguing the effect of the Twin Towers on different nations at all.

Jess...I see what you're saying. Perhaps I should not have quoted yours alone and perhaps I also misinterpreted it. But there is a common viewpoint shared by people from other countries that I've seen since 9-11. It seems that people think that we can't comprehend other tragedies that have taken place elsewhere...and that because we are the "Big ol' USA", we think that 9-11 is more tragic than other tragedies in history that took place elsewhere. Sometimes it seems that BECAUSE we are such a powerhouse, we are constantly made to feel guilty for feeling 9-11 closer to our hearts than tragedies elsewhere.

There also seems to be an opinion (not YOUR opinion, mind you, but what I've witnessed with others) that we don't recognize the cruelty that takes place elsewhere in the world as we SPEAK. It seems that because we are such a powerhouse of a country, that we aren't allowed to truly grieve for our dead...and for the significant tragedy that truly was 9-11. People constantly want to label us as ignorant for not paying more attention to these other tragedies in other countries and perhaps putting more weight on 9-11 than these other countries' losses.

It's not that we put more weight on people's DEATHS...but the nature of the tragedy is what hits home.

The victims of 9-11 went to work.

The victims of 9-11 got on a plane.

We were living in a time of peace and were blind sided.

That is not to say that those deaths were any more or less important than the soldiers who have fought the good fight far away and close to home...but simply to say that those soldiers were prepared for a fight...they were prepared to die and knew they could very likely face death. These people just went to work...and thousands of them perished before they knew what hit them.

And so it took us into a new era and a new way of thinking. Many of us...not just in the US but in other countries too...always have that in the back of our minds now when we get in our cars in the morning...when we swipe our badges before we head up to our desks...when the security guard scrutinizes us. We always have that in our minds when we get on an airplane. Not as acutely as it was directly after the attacks...but it's still there.

So the tragedy of 9-11 is still lingering...and forgive us if it's more freshly on our minds than the deaths during the holocost...but it's still hovering around us as we speak.

[aloges]

Reading the posts, I figure that the main difference between what Americans feel about 9/11 and WWII is that one happened during times of peace, while the other was a war.

So I assume it's correct to say that what hit the US worst was the shock on 9/11, as opposed to fighting a (declared, on Germany's part) war. This is very understandable, especially because that shocking tragedy happened very recently.

But what I don't understand is that the current US administration is so succesful at using the 9/11 attacks as an argument for a large number of at least inconvenient measures, and even wars (I don't want to use the word "instrumentalise" because I don't think I can judge if that is really happening). Does the majority of the American public (still) feel so shocked that it doesn't get to balance reasons for what it's administration is doing, or is it a reaction to provocation and endangerment by terrorists?

[mikecweb]

Another misconception of those outside of the US is that we blidly follow GWB and support everything he does. This is simply not true. In fact now more than ever alot of people are going against war in the US. Yes we were very patriotic after 9/11 and had a lets kick everyones ass atittude. But that was a reaction. A reaction that has long since passed. There will be debates whether we should have gone to war in Iraq from know until forever. It was an opinion of a majority that there was justification for war.
Also you must also remember we haven't had an election since all of this. Thats when our true opinions of the adminstration come out.

[Katamarino]

My personal opinion, and of course it may be wrong, is that the US administration are using the Twin Towers as an excuse to clear up many 'problem areas' that they have had their eye on, as well as to convince the American public that 'The War Against Terror' (how unfortunate) is really underway when in reality there is very little that CAN be done.

[JeffinDEN]

I pointed out, of course using WWII as the example, that this absolutely wasn't the case to the majority of combatants. Jeff then arrived ...

Sorry girlie.. I had arrived prior to your statement. Don't get your little panties in a wad...

I agree with Amy's statement.... "So the tragedy of 9-11 is still lingering...and forgive us if it's more freshly on our minds than the deaths during the holocost...but it's still hovering around us as we speak."

So spare me your hissy fit....I'm not one of the little teeny boppers that want to get in your pants...

Your entitled to your opinion, just don't try to make me think it is the right opinion, and I will do the same.

[mikecweb]

Sorry girlie.. I had arrived prior to your statement. Don't get your little panties in a wad...

WTF Jeff why do you have to turn to insults. Always makes you look like an immature idiot.
And no I'm not one of those teen boppers.

[Katamarino]

Sorry girlie.. I had arrived prior to your statement. Don't get your little panties in a wad...

There's a typical comeback from you. Its a mystery to me why you don't get on better with some of the less mature members we've had...

I agree with Amy's statement.... "So the tragedy of 9-11 is still lingering...and forgive us if it's more freshly on our minds than the deaths during the holocost...but it's still hovering around us as we speak."

And it's a fair point

So spare me your hissy fit....I'm not one of the little teeny boppers that want to get in your pants...

Thank goodness!

Your entitled to your opinion, just don't try to make me think it is the right opinion, and I will do the same.

You seem be mistaken as to why I commented about you. I guess you don't see just what a stupid arguement 'They can't have felt anything' was. I'm would have expected something a little less retarded from you with your level of knowledge. I have no problem with your viewpoint when stated sensibly, it's stupid little throwaway remarks like that.

[herpa2003]

Reading the posts, I figure that the main difference between what Americans feel about 9/11 and WWII is that one happened during times of peace, while the other was a war.

So I assume it's correct to say that what hit the US worst was the shock on 9/11, as opposed to fighting a (declared, on Germany's part) war. This is very understandable, especially because that shocking tragedy happened very recently.

But what I don't understand is that the current US administration is so succesful at using the 9/11 attacks as an argument for a large number of at least inconvenient measures, and even wars (I don't want to use the word "instrumentalise" because I don't think I can judge if that is really happening). Does the majority of the American public (still) feel so shocked that it doesn't get to balance reasons for what it's administration is doing, or is it a reaction to provocation and endangerment by terrorists?

Well, I think Bush is being very smart about this. Suppose we didn't go into Iraq, and then there is an attack on one of our cities using WMDs. It doesn't matter who we thought did it, even if we had clear evidence that the weapon came from Luxembourg (just for an example) a lot of Americans would think it is a cover up to save the presidents career. The govt has to do all of this, because if there is another attack, they lost thousands of innocent lives as well as their hopes of being re-elected in '04.