Something needs to be said

[flyboy2548m]

You made some very serious accusations in this thread.

Such as?

[ptbodale]

The other thread that gave this one a start has been closed and eliminated. Any reason this one hasn't been?

[Chris Kilroy]

The other thread that gave this one a start has been closed and eliminated. Any reason this one hasn't been?

I don't believe a thread with good natured debate should be closed, or eliminated. The other thread was nothing but mudslinging. This one started that way, but with PK's departure, has evolved into what I view as a pretty intelligent, civil debate between members.

Forums, in my opinion, are good for more than all holding hands and singing kumbaya. Civil discussion and debate isn't a bad thing.

[flyboy2548m]

Forums, in my opinion, are good for more than all holding hands and singing kumbaya.

Glad to hear you say that, Chris.

[ptbodale]

Forums, in my opinion, are good for more than all holding hands and singing kumbaya. Civil discussion and debate isn't a bad thing.

I agree Chris that debate is healthy and the comments in the other thread even startled me. This thread started as an offshoot so I was wondering why it was still in existance.

I provided an answer on a QANTAS thread and the next time I checked to see if anyone else had info it was closed, locked and eliminated.

[Crism]

[That's good for at least a week - ChrisK]

[Vinco]

As stated before there is a difference between brilliance and being good or evil. You can be brilliant and evil. And even whatever the play on words may be, he certainly had something about him that got people to believe that killing Jews would solve Germany's problems. And just an FYI, I am of Ukranian and Panamanian herritage. My grandparents were taken from Ukraine and were made to work in Germany during WWII. And don't forget the Soviets that moved across Eastern Europe as they pushed the Germans back weren't exactly nice either.
...

I don't see any evidence to suggest his brilliance. He had charisma and an ability to appeal to the hearts and souls of the German public. His message struck a chord and big part of that message was blaming the jews. That is fundamentally wrong and speaks volume to German people's willingness to follow blidly. As far as Soviet Army's treatment of captured Germans military or otherwise, I believe if you saw what they saw, you'd be more willing to accept it as deserving treatment.

....
My point about the aftermath of WWI was that if Germany wasn't rung out by the allies after WWI and the economy wasn't pushed into the gutter, maybe Hitler wouldn't have come to power. If the economy was doing well, people might have just said "this guy is a moron who wants to start wars and get us into trouble when we are doing fine as it is". But because things were going so badly, and he said "I'll make you strong again" they decided to follow him, then once people realized what was going on, it was too late to do anything even if they wanted to.
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You make it sound like the country was hijacked by the government but the truth is everybody participated in singling jews out as the enemy even prior to the war. And, yes, it excelated from there but everybody was excited about the end result the war would bring. And even during the war, you can say "hey, they're just soldiers following orders" and the atrocities commited are just part of it. I can't accept that. The responsibility lies with the entire country. Just like our current policy if you're a government fostering terrorists your regime is held responsible.

...
Germany got off easy after WWII, hell, they were helped to rebuild and form a new government by the allies. And really, what else was there to do. Hitler was dead, and the Nazi leadership that didn't escape was brought to trial. Some of the engineers/scientists were brought to the US to help out with our space program. And today they are doing fine, eventhough many still think of them as monsters, racist, and whatever. The Germans I have come into contact with have been perfectly nice, so I don't see why they as a whole should be villified more than anyone else.

Actually a large part of German Nazi leadship was not captured and brough to trial. They weren't actively pursued either (except by the israelies). Most soldiers that commited attrocities were never tried.

What brough this whole discussion on and point I'm trying to make is Hitler was not brilliant. He was a guy who was at the right place, at the right time, under right set circumstances. He had charisma and an ability to convince people of his message. His everworsening message I might add. He had the right amount of ignorance. And did not see any problems in using force to ensure his message was recieved. And mounting arragance as evident by his decision to open second front and to involve United States.

[Vinco]

And that is how taboos are born. Its just like the kid everyone hates at school. Everyone is afraid to say 1 good thing about him because they're afraid they'll be bombarded by everyone who hates him. Whereas you may hate him yourself, you just realise he possess one human quality.

There is really nothing you can say to Hitler's credit other than he was able to seize control of a country, which doesn't in itself show stupidity.

This isn't a taboo...we're talking about it. To be honest I don't quite follow your kid in school example. I will agree that he wasn't stupid but there are a lot of qualities to discribe someone, who isn't stupid, way before you get to "brilliant".

P.S. Thanks to the moderator for allowing this discussion to proceed.

[Airbus_A320]

I don't see any evidence to suggest his brilliance. He had charisma and an ability to appeal to the hearts and souls of the German public. His message struck a chord and big part of that message was blaming the jews. That is fundamentally wrong and speaks volume to German people's willingness to follow blidly. As far as Soviet Army's treatment of captured Germans military or otherwise, I believe if you saw what they saw, you'd be more willing to accept it as deserving treatment.

Is the German people's willingness to follow his twisted ideas in the false hope of somehow brining their country out of dispair really that much different than the willingness of many in the USA now adays to gladly give up the rights and ideas that this country was founded on because the government says that it's needed to stop terrorism?
Also, don't forget that Stalin killed even more people than Hitler. And the Soviets treated those they held captive (political prisoners) pretty badly too.

You make it sound like the country was hijacked by the government but the truth is everybody participated in singling jews out as the enemy even prior to the war. And, yes, it excelated from there but everybody was excited about the end result the war would bring. And even during the war, you can say "hey, they're just soldiers following orders" and the atrocities commited are just part of it. I can't accept that. The responsibility lies with the entire country. Just like our current policy if you're a government fostering terrorists your regime is held responsible.

Yes the regime is held responsible (that's what I was saying), not the people living there. They have little say if any and do what they are told pretty much what to do. And of course everyone was excited about the end result of the war, I bet it that probably wore off pretty quickly, when they started realizing they were going to lose, and had B-17's bombing the hell out of them everyday.

Actually a large part of German Nazi leadship was not captured and brough to trial. They weren't actively pursued either (except by the israelies). Most soldiers that commited attrocities were never tried.

My point is that that many of the big shots were indeed tried, but yes, a lot did escape. It's impossible to get everyone, especially if they just fade away.

What brough this whole discussion on and point I'm trying to make is Hitler was not brilliant. He was a guy who was at the right place, at the right time, under right set circumstances. He had charisma and an ability to convince people of his message. His everworsening message I might add. He had the right amount of ignorance. And did not see any problems in using force to ensure his message was recieved. And mounting arragance as evident by his decision to open second front and to involve United States.

The word that was used to describe him isn't the point here. The point here is the fact that he was able to do what he did and get people to believe him you can call that whatever you want. You're missing the greater point here that he was able to come from obscurity and convince people to follow his twisted path which ended up screwing Germany and the world over royally.

The other point I'm trying to make is that just banning any discussion of Hitler at all just leads to ignorance. There are things that can be learned from what Hitler did, and one of the most important ones is about how he was able to take power and assert his views and why people followed him without thinking about the consequences and asking questions. If people understand that, then that's the best way to prevent similar government abuses of power from happening again. I see a lot of parallels happening today with our national security polices. People are happy to follow everything that the government tells them without questioning it as long as it is spun in some way that says "if you don't listen to us the terrorists are going to come and kill you." We are at a time now where we have the chance to make sure that freedom lives for ever, this can be done by understanding how freedom has been undermined in the past by those just looking for power. Or we can ban all discussion of Hitler as being bad, don't understand how he was able to take power and get people to blindly follow and blindly follow ourselves as we get taken down the same road by those just looking for power today. This is the greater point of the whole thing, not wheater or not to use the word brilliant or not.

[Peter_K]

Such as?

Give it a thought. It will come to you.

[Crunk415balla]

This isn't a taboo...we're talking about it. To be honest I don't quite follow your kid in school example. I will agree that he wasn't stupid but there are a lot of qualities to discribe someone, who isn't stupid, way before you get to "brilliant".

P.S. Thanks to the moderator for allowing this discussion to proceed.

I do see your point. Yet, I still maintain it takes a higher than average level of intellegence to acheive what he did as far as rising to power is concerned. As for "taboo", I meant this is a very sensitive subject which is universally one-sided, so if someone were to use a word like "intelligent" to describe Hitler, even if refering to BEFORE the halocaust as I was, it is very difficult to get someone to agree.

The "kid in school" example was meant to show that when everyone else refuses to admit anything different about something due to theuniversial biast opinion that surrounds that induvidual, you yourself will be less likely to see it. Again, I'm not insinuating he wasn't evil or a worthless peice of sh*t, I'm just trying to explain my opinion.

[Crunk415balla]

Paul, thats true about Stalin. But for the most part, they were his own people. Hitler had plans of exterminating all of Europe who didn't fit into his master plan.

[Airbus_A320]

Paul, thats true about Stalin. But for the most part, they were his own people. Hitler had plans of exterminating all of Europe who didn't fit into his master plan.

Well, yeah, what I was saying is that killing people is killing people. Many innocent people who had no choice or say in the situation died or had thier lives effed up. Because of a couple of wackos.

[Vinco]

Is the German people's willingness to follow his twisted ideas in the false hope of somehow brining their country out of dispair really that much different than the willingness of many in the USA now adays to gladly give up the rights and ideas that this country was founded on because the government says that it's needed to stop terrorism?

If we go down this slippery slope, this thread will certainly be locked.

Also, don't forget that Stalin killed even more people than Hitler. And the Soviets treated those they held captive (political prisoners) pretty badly too.

Agree and I would not call Stalin brilliant.

Yes the regime is held responsible (that's what I was saying), not the people living there. They have little say if any and do what they are told pretty much what to do. And of course everyone was excited about the end result of the war, I bet it that probably wore off pretty quickly, when they started realizing they were going to lose, and had B-17's bombing the hell out of them everyday.

It would be naive to assume you can separate regime and people. I hate to bring it up but it illustrates the point. Let's look at Iraq, the regime is responsible but tens of thousands Iraqies have lost their lives paying for it.

The word that was used to describe him isn't the point here. The point here is the fact that he was able to do what he did and get people to believe him you can call that whatever you want. You're missing the greater point here that he was able to come from obscurity and convince people to follow his twisted path which ended up screwing Germany and the world over royally.

Actually the word used to discribe him is the point. Read back where the discussion turned from the original topic of racial slur to discussion of Hitler. He was referred to as "brilliant" and I don't think that he is. Unless you consider Osama Bin Laden brilliant as well. I'll be more than happy to debate both.

The other point I'm trying to make is that just banning any discussion of Hitler at all just leads to ignorance. There are things that can be learned from what Hitler did, and one of the most important ones is about how he was able to take power and assert his views and why people followed him without thinking about the consequences and asking questions. If people understand that, then that's the best way to prevent similar government abuses of power from happening again. I see a lot of parallels happening today with our national security polices. People are happy to follow everything that the government tells them without questioning it as long as it is spun in some way that says "if you don't listen to us the terrorists are going to come and kill you." We are at a time now where we have the chance to make sure that freedom lives for ever, this can be done by understanding how freedom has been undermined in the past by those just looking for power. Or we can ban all discussion of Hitler as being bad, don't understand how he was able to take power and get people to blindly follow and blindly follow ourselves as we get taken down the same road by those just looking for power today. This is the greater point of the whole thing, not wheater or not to use the word brilliant or not.

Once again, I don't recall anyone suggesting to ban discussions about Hitler. What sparked this discussion was someone presenting a conclusion without any further arguments. If you want to discuss "the greater point of the whole thing" start a new thread discussing Germany under Hitler and our current state of affairs. This thread is about racial slur against jews. As much as it pains me to say, Hitler will always be part of jewish history, hence making discussion about Hitler on topic.

[Airbus_A320]

It would be naive to assume you can separate regime and people. I hate to bring it up but it illustrates the point. Let's look at Iraq, the regime is responsible but tens of thousands Iraqies have lost their lives paying for it.

What I was saying is that people can't be held as responsible for what a regime does as its leaders. Not that what a regime does doesn't effect the people living there.

If we go down this slippery slope, this thread will certainly be locked.

Why would it be locked? The fact that so many are so willing blindly follow and not think is the reason why Hitler was able to come to power the way he did, and I would sure as hell not want to see the same tactics used to make a police state out of what is supposed to be a free country. But it's certainly heading that way, and hopefully one of these days somebody says enough is enough.

I think in the end everyone here agrees, we just have different ways of interpreting the details. But we all arrive at the same conclusions. Hitler was a very bad guy and he somehow was able to take control of a country and get it to follow his screwed up and illogical ideas into being doomed. And how he was able to do this should be studied and understood so that the same tactics aren't used again to bring totalitarian control upon large numbers of people who are just trying to live life.