Photographer Arrrested : For......well....Photographing Trains !!

[JordanD]

Exactly. Be courteous, explain to the officer what you're doing in a nice tone. Don't immediately start screaming that it is a constitutional right to be there and that you won't leave. Hear the officer out, don't break off his sentences. When he is done, then you can talk. I have been approached several times while at airports and only once was I asked to leave a spot, but that request was followed by a "however, we can't make you." If you are on public property then shoot away and explain that to the officer, in a sensible demeanor and you'll be fine.

Doesn't really help when the cop decides to pull up and immediately start doing the opposite. It's hard to be courteous when some redneck's spewing bullshit at you.

[z740]

Right now I have a feeling the Amtrak police officer is regretting what he did....IF.....the story the guy is telling is true. Assuming the story is true then I think the officer will be searching for a new job in the near future.

I rode the train up to NYC on Amtrak the day before this took place. All of the officers were very courteous and I think most of them were NYPD officers. I saw a few Amtrak people on the tracks and they had no problem with me taking a picture. They actually saw me trying to take one and asked if they were in the way and moved off to the side so I could get a clear shot. So I think there are good officers who don't take it to the extreme and will let you off with a warning and hear you out if you have a disagreement and are calm and reasonable with it. Then there are those who do take it to the extreme and as soon as they put on that badge in the morning their "power" goes to their head.

What's worse is having an airline employee threaten to call the airport police and TSA on you if you don't stop taking pictures out the window of an airport. Of course it's more of a crime to have a professional lens and take the picture than to have a little P&S. She walked by and went off on me while the guy next to me snapped away with his little camera. Now THAT makes me mad. Though I was reasonable with her and she still was like "I'm gonna get the TSA over here" So we walked away and passed a TSA officer and asked him if he cared, and he obviously said that it was perfectly legal and didn't have a care in the world.

Best of luck to the guy!

-Chris

[Tanner_J]

Not surprised its Amtrak Police...they are basically the guys that didn't make it in NYPD, Port PD, or MTA PD..basically the bottom of the barrell cops.

That's one of the most uneducated comments I have ever heard. Just because they are "Amtrak" Police does not make them any less than the NYPD, Port, or whatever. In fact, they say being a police officer at a railroad is one of the best kept secrets in Law Enforcement. Their Officers have Federal Powers, meaning they have police powers anywhere in the United States. They are also no limited to working on the track. They can do everything the NYPD can do, anywhere they want. They have many of the same units the NYPD do also, including K9 and Aviation. It's a shame you think that way.

I hope you never need help from the Amtrak police, since they're not good enough in your opinion.

[tommyalf]

That's one of the most uneducated comments I have ever heard. Just because they are "Amtrak" Police does not make them any less than the NYPD, Port, or whatever. In fact, they say being a police officer at a railroad is one of the best kept secrets in Law Enforcement. Their Officers have Federal Powers, meaning they have police powers anywhere in the United States. They are also no limited to working on the track. They can do everything the NYPD can do, anywhere they want. They have many of the same units the NYPD do also, including K9 and Aviation. It's a shame you think that way.

I hope you never need help from the Amtrak police, since they're not good enough in your opinion.

The fact is most of these guys are totally uneducated and require very little schooling to carry a weapon, which is problem number one. How can a Police Office make a logical sound decision with little schooling? I have little respect for any uniformed officer who places their badge above the Constitution. The police are pubic servants and are there to protect and serve at the whim of the people. I applaud this person for taking a stand and telling them that he would not delete his pictures.

BTW Amtrak Police, NYPD, and Port Police cannot do "anything" they want anywhere my friend. An NYPD police officer when out of the boundaries of NYC do not have any more power then you are I. He or she can only make a citizen arrest, just like you or me. So drop the crap Tanner....Police only deserve the respect they show the public and in this case these morons don't deserve any respect.

[Tanner_J]

Amtrak Police have full police powers in whatever states they have services in. While they are not a Federal Agency, they have Federal Powers. If an Amtrak Officer is commissioned by the State of California as a police officer, since Amtrak's jurisdiction runs across the country, their police powers also extend with those tracks. Amtrak can pull you over in NYC just as NYPD can, even if the closest Amtrak station is 20 miles away.

While it is true that you do not need a college education to be a police officer, the extensive background checks and screening officers go through before getting a badge is more than you could imagine. The process takes anywhere from 6 months to over a year to get through the screening process. Not to mention they are then sent to an academy which trains them in the laws and how to perform their duties.

Every state has different jurisdiction rules. For example here in Kentucky, a police officer in a city has police powers anywhere in the county his city is in. He may not be in his city, but he can enforce laws. It is different in every state. In Indiana, every police officer has full police powers everywhere in the state. Amtrak has Federal Police Powers, meaning they can enforce laws everywhere they have service.

If you don't want to believe me that's fine.

As for this specific situation. You don't know anything more than what you're reading so how are you going to call the officer a moron. Is Penn Station privately owned? If so the police can enforce what the owners want, and if the owners don't want photography allowed than they can stop it. If their orders are not followed then they can be arrested for non-compliance.

[tommyalf]

Amtrak Police have full police powers in whatever states they have services in. While they are not a Federal Agency, they have Federal Powers. If an Amtrak Officer is commissioned by the State of California as a police officer, since Amtrak's jurisdiction runs across the country, their police powers also extend with those tracks. Amtrak can pull you over in NYC just as NYPD can, even if the closest Amtrak station is 20 miles away.

While it is true that you do not need a college education to be a police officer, the extensive background checks and screening officers go through before getting a badge is more than you could imagine. The process takes anywhere from 6 months to over a year to get through the screening process. Not to mention they are then sent to an academy which trains them in the laws and how to perform their duties.

Every state has different jurisdiction rules. For example here in Kentucky, a police officer in a city has police powers anywhere in the county his city is in. He may not be in his city, but he can enforce laws. It is different in every state. In Indiana, every police officer has full police powers everywhere in the state. Amtrak has Federal Police Powers, meaning they can enforce laws everywhere they have service.

If you don't want to believe me that's fine.

As for this specific situation. You don't know anything more than what you're reading so how are you going to call the officer a moron. Is Penn Station privately owned? If so the police can enforce what the owners want, and if the owners don't want photography allowed than they can stop it. If their orders are not followed then they can be arrested for non-compliance.

Wrong... An Amtrak Police officer can only cite or arrest you off of Amtrak property if the state, city, or town has granted them permission, (People v. Landis (2007) 156 Cal.App.4th Supp. 12.) or when performing duties associated with said organization or patrons (NYS sec 830.33.)

As for the extensive training they go through...no $hit... I know the training they go through but its so backwards that Police are trained in very black and white decision making. Its like training your dog not to pee on the carpet.

Penn Station is owned by Amtrak who sponsored this photo contest... Why Amtrak would prohibit photos of their own trains if they were hosting a contest to take pictures of their own trains???

[thxcollins]

I'm a photographer and agree that the police could have handled the situation better, but last year's contest ended July, 2008. This year's contest has yet to be announced. For all we know, they could decided to discontinue the program for 2010's calendar. Why is he using that as a reason*?


*not that he would need one.

[Tanner_J]

Once again, Amtrak police enforces local and federal laws. Amtrak runs in 46 states. Officers are commissioned in the states they are based. Federal law says if an Amtrak Police Officer is licensed in one state, they are commissioned in all. That is straight from one of the officers.

They can pull you over and enforce laws off of their property whether you think so or not. When it happens to you, go ahead and tell the officer he doesn't have the jurisdiction. I'd say he knows the rules better than you.

[Airbus_A320]

So basically, Tom gives an explanation with citations of what the law actually is with regards to Amtrak officers, and you continue to say that an Amtrak officer can just go out and patrol/enforce wherever he wants without permission from anyone because the Amtrak Police is actually a federal police force for the United States. And your source is ironically an Amtrak police officer who would benefit from interpreting the law to best suit himself and make him feel more powerful/special.

hmm.....

Personally, I have never even SEEN an Amtrak police officer or patrol car... ever. If they are so powerful and have unlimited power, why are they hiding someplace instead of enforcing some laws. Hell, if the Amtrak police has jurisdiction anywhere in the country, why even bother having the FBI? Just make all the agents Amtrak police officers.

[Tanner_J]

You won't see them because they do stick to Amtrak property and the surrounding areas.

They have the power to do it, it doesn't mean they do.

With that being said, I'm going to step out of this thread.

[RobinB]

Paranoia Personified

Hoo boy, even with all our problems here in S Africa, we sure as hell dont have to "endure" this sort of crap. I have yet to be even "enquired upon" taking pics in places (in SA) such as: Airports (including SAAF Air bases), Harbours (including naval bases), railway stations/sidings, public buildings - in fact I have never been asked by any authoroty to "not take pics".

Oh, by the way, the US....... hmm rather a "violent set o words", perhaps you deserve what you get.

The Star Spangled Banner Lyrics By Francis Scott Key 1814 (interesting bits in parenthasis)

Oh, say can you see by the dawn's early light
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars thru the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watched were so gallantly streaming?
(And the rocket's red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there.)
Oh, say does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the (land of the free) and the home of the brave?

On the shore, dimly seen through the mists of the deep,
(Where the foe's haughty host in dread silence reposes),
What is that which the breeze, o'er the towering steep,
As it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses?
Now it catches the gleam of the morning's first beam,
In full glory reflected now shines in the stream:
'Tis the star-spangled banner! Oh long may it wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

(And where is that band who so vauntingly swore
That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion,
A home and a country should leave us no more!
Their blood has washed out their foul footsteps' pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave):
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

Oh! thus be it ever, (when freemen shall stand)
Between their loved home and the war's desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heav'n rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
(Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust.")
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave

[Jet-fighters.Net]

I agree that this country is in the grips of paranoia. But lets face it we all have to keep a level head about this. If you are approached by an officer chances are they were called to your location. If they do not investigate they can lose there job. While some officers are professional others are not the greatest to deal with. You dont know what is going through there mind when the are approaching you. If i was a officer of the peace i would have a feeling that my tact with the public today, would not be as good as lets say as another day because of a stressful situation i encountered yesterday evening. You never can tell what is happening.

My advice is to listen to the officers questions and concerns, and dont speak until they are finished talking.

comply with any of there requests to leave. If they ask you to delete the photos show them the images to show them that you are not taking photos of sensitive areas. Once they see your photos they will back down on there requests.

Carry examples of your work with you so that they can see what your images look like.

I have found these tips have worked very well for myself over the years with my many encounters with police, security and the military security forces.

[G-TTIC]

Jet-fighters i can see your very good at getting the best result from these people. I'm not that bad with it either. Allthough it really rubs me up the wrong way inside even if i do an excelent job of not letting it show and keeping a cool head while the security people of any description are present. Don't you feel the same.

Its like when i got stopped 4 times in one day a man with his 3 year old daughter was there. They were there for thier first time and they got stopped twice while i was there and i got stopped with them as well. Just the usual what are you doing and explain you're reasons for being here buisness. I think that stopping a father and his 3 year old speaks volumes

[Sarcasm on] I bet that little girl was caught holding some bolt cutters [Sarcasm off]

I once spoke to a ATC controller who works in Vancouver. Me and him got talking and we had a good old moan about these issues and wondered if someone of a legal background who is also a photographer would fight this (relevant for deleting photos and not being allowed to use public access non airside locations to photograph).

[Jet-fighters.Net]

Personally i dont mind dealing with the officers. They have a job to do and they are human beings just like you or I. If you put yourself in there shoes they are not sure what you are up to, is this going to be a friendly encounter and ID check or is this guy going to pull a gun on you. I have several friends that are in law enforcement and they simply say there biggest complaint is people do not pay them any respect.

[Lions]

The fact is most of these guys are totally uneducated and require very little schooling to carry a weapon, which is problem number one. How can a Police Office make a logical sound decision with little schooling? I have little respect for any uniformed officer who places their badge above the Constitution. The police are pubic servants and are there to protect and serve at the whim of the people. I applaud this person for taking a stand and telling them that he would not delete his pictures.

BTW Amtrak Police, NYPD, and Port Police cannot do "anything" they want anywhere my friend. An NYPD police officer when out of the boundaries of NYC do not have any more power then you are I. He or she can only make a citizen arrest, just like you or me. So drop the crap Tanner....Police only deserve the respect they show the public and in this case these morons don't deserve any respect.

As an ex police officer I totally agree with you Tom