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Israeli military boards ship in Gaza flotilla

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  • Israeli military boards ship in Gaza flotilla

    http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/me...est/index.html


    Israeli military said the Gaza waters are closed for all maritime traffic, who can authorize this?
    BH Airlines A319


  • #2
    Originally posted by Asmir Hamidovic View Post
    Israeli military said the Gaza waters are closed for all maritime traffic, who can authorize this?
    The Israeli military, I guess.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by HalcyonDays View Post
      The Israeli military, I guess.
      Well i'm pretty sure that is against international law!
      BH Airlines A319

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Asmir Hamidovic View Post
        Well i'm pretty sure that is against international law!
        Well, yes, it is. The real point is the double standards of the so-called 'international community' which lets Egypt get away with its own much more rigorous blockade of Gaza. At least Israel lets in some humanitarian aid, which Egypt doesn't.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by HalcyonDays View Post
          Well, yes, it is. The real point is the double standards of the so-called 'international community' which lets Egypt get away with its own much more rigorous blockade of Gaza. At least Israel lets in some humanitarian aid, which Egypt doesn't.

          Not sure about the whole Egypt deal with Gaza but as far as i know few thousand pounds of stuff a week from Israel is not doing much help! There is also a list of what can go in t Gaza that the Israel hold, so if they take the cargo from the flotilla im pretty sure half of the stuff will not make it to Gaza very sad ....
          BH Airlines A319

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Asmir Hamidovic View Post
            Not sure about the whole Egypt deal with Gaza but as far as i know few thousand pounds of stuff a week from Israel is not doing much help! There is also a list of what can go in t Gaza that the Israel hold, so if they take the cargo from the flotilla im pretty sure half of the stuff will not make it to Gaza very sad ....
            Well, I think you need to look into the "whole Egypt deal", as does the rest of the world and the Western media, who tend to ignore the role (or perhaps non-role) of the Egyptians here. The Egyptians are just as fearful of Hamas as the Israelis are and have imposed a much more ruthless embargo on Gaza (never mind Arab and Islamic solidarity, which seems to count for little).

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            • #7
              Originally posted by HalcyonDays View Post
              Well, yes, it is. The real point is the double standards of the so-called 'international community' which lets Egypt get away with its own much more rigorous blockade of Gaza. At least Israel lets in some humanitarian aid, which Egypt doesn't.
              David, the real point is not the embargo imposed by either Israel or Egypt or the 'international community's' opinion about it but an act of state sponsored piracy in international waters in defiance and despicable disregard of any international law.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Peter_K View Post
                David, the real point is not the embargo imposed by either Israel or Egypt or the 'international community's' opinion about it but an act of state sponsored piracy in international waters in defiance and despicable disregard of any international law.
                I don't think we know enough to say that it was state-sponsored piracy. A 'peace mission' responds with violence to poorly armed Israeli boarders who have an interest in checking out whether anything nasty is being transferred to Gaza for possible later use against Israel itself. The humanitarian stuff can be allowed to proceed. Few other countries would not do the same if national interests were at stake. The fact is that Egypt blockades Gaza because they are just as worried about Hamas/Muslim Brotherhood influence in their country as Israel. Guess what, Egypt opens their border today for a "temporary" period. I'm shocked.

                Yes, I know it was in international waters and all that, which was kind of behind my initial quip in Post #2.

                I will agree that Israel was a little hamfisted and was pushing the limits a little bit in that the Western media response was as predictable as tomorrow's sunrise. Moreover, I find that Israel's military planning and tactics in recent years have deteriorated substantially. The fact remains, however, that the organizers of this flotilla were also angling for just the sort of incident which occurred and thus seemed to lack basic common sense.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Peter_K View Post
                  David, the real point is not the embargo imposed by either Israel or Egypt or the 'international community's' opinion about it but an act of state sponsored piracy in international waters in defiance and despicable disregard of any international law.
                  Do you suggest that Israel should have waited until the ships were in Gaza territorail waters?

                  --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                  --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by HalcyonDays View Post
                    ................. The fact remains, however, that the organizers of this flotilla were also angling for just the sort of incident which occurred and thus seemed to lack basic common sense.
                    I do not know more than I've read/heard in the US media but my instinct is that you may be correct.

                    If anyone tries to enter US territorial waters they are arrested and returned to whence they came - if they resisted arrest I'm sure the US Coast Guard might use force.

                    Why is it that people go into dangerous situations? - the Brits who sailed of the coast off Somalia so they could have cell phone capability and are now hostages and the US citizens who entered North Korea, Iran, and Myanmar illegally. To my mind they are asking for trouble.

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                    • #11
                      What about the fact that Gaza is an integral part of Israel that was "occupied" by a militant faction of the Palestinians? Do the Israeli’s not have a right to protect their own country – including the prevention of the delivery of any goods that would prolong the occupation? And, please, let’s not go down the road that the Israeli’s are “occupying” Palestine. Israel has always been the home of the Jews, and, while they have had to fight for the right to live in their homeland for millennia, the most recent in December of 2008, there is little denial of history that would withstand anything more than a cursory inspection of the facts. Now, after having said that, has anyone seen the YouTube footage of the “peaceful” preparations on-board the Mavi Marmara? It’s pretty clear these so-called "peaceful pro-Palestinian activists" weren’t trying to avoid a fight; in fact, they were looking for a fight – they wanted a fight – and they got one; to the surprise of the Israeli forces involved.
                      AirRabbit

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by AirRabbit View Post
                        Now, after having said that, has anyone seen the YouTube footage of the “peaceful” preparations on-board the Mavi Marmara? It’s pretty clear these so-called "peaceful pro-Palestinian activists" weren’t trying to avoid a fight; in fact, they were looking for a fight

                        I would have to disagree with that. The ship was in international waters. Allegedly the Israelis fired a few rounds onto the ship before the commandos boarded. That would be an obvious justification if true.

                        If no shots where fired, and since most footage has been confiscated by Israel we might never find out except from biased statements from the civilians involved, then that still leaves the fact that armed soldiers where boarding a vessel in international waters. That in itself is already an attack.

                        Had the Israeli commandos waited till the vessel entered Israeli waters, then the matter would be totally different. It would have been justified and any reasonable acts of self-defence by the soldiers would be fine. I won't go into an argument wether the soldiers conducted a reasonable act of self-defence. That is totally subjective and hard to second guess for someone that was not on the scene and only has access to limited video footage and inherently biased interviews/statements from either side.

                        But for argument's sake, let's compare the commandos boarding the vessel against the pirates operating of Somalia. By your logic the crews of freighters would not be allowed to defend themselves against the pirates until such a time as the pirates fire their arms? Before that they are just un-invited guests that just so happen to carry guns around? No harm done I suppose? Or does this not count since pirates are pirates and soldiers are soldiers? If that is the case you'd be advocating state-sponsored crime at best, state sponsored terrorism at worst.

                        The civilians on board where defending. They might have been the first to go physically violent, I won't deny that, but they where in their right to do so.

                        Please visit my website! http://www.schipholspotter.com/

                        Don't make me use uppercase...

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                        • #13
                          "Israeli waters" is a fuzzy term. The waters next to Gaza are as Israeli as Gaza itself. They would Palestinan waters.

                          If the Isrealis borded the ships there they would have been acused of using military force in Gaza, or attacking a foreign ship in Gaza waters, and anyway the result would have been the same.

                          Israel offered in several ways and times to admit the goods in Isreal and give it to the red cross or other organization for them to deliver it to Gaza via the ground border, as it is done everyday.

                          Shortly before the attack Israeli ships communicated via radio with the flotilla and stated that the government of Israel mainained a blokade on Gaza waters and that they were not alowed to approach Gaza, ad that they were invited to go to an Israeli port, deliver the goods, and then depart again in their vesels. It was clear that Isreal would not let them reach Gaza by sea. The response was "Negative, we are going to Gaza".

                          The real obective, admited by members of the humanitarian team, break the blokade. And Isreal could not allow that, not because of this case but because of the precedent for future cases.

                          There is no doubt in my mind that, given the situation, Israel had no other choice (they could have done it in international waters or in palestinian waters, what's the difference?).

                          But I critizice Isreal for killing people. If they were being beat, well I'm sorry, they knew that woas going to happen and that's the cost of the blokade. They should have sent soldiers with only non-lethal weapons, lots of soldiers to control the situation, instead of just a few armed ones.

                          And more deeply, I critizice Israel for how they are managing the conflict in the last decades. I said above "given the situation there was no choice", but there was a choice not to be in this situation. And that's Israel responsibility.

                          --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                          --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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                          • #14
                            Well, S13 has said that next time they won´t be as gentle, I interpret it, no non-lethal guns but live ammo from the start.
                            9 dead, 8 turkish and 1 US citizen, guess the economical downturn is on the turkish side,
                            511k Israeli tourists visited Turkey in 2008, many gamble a lot on the casinos since casinos are banned in Israel.
                            Soon the world cup starts and all this is forgotten by the public, only the extremists will bang their drum.
                            BTW Gazans didn´t want the food to be distrubted by truck,-It´s a political issue as well was the explanation.
                            "The real CEO of the 787 project is named Potemkin"

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                              The real obective, admited by members of the humanitarian team, break the blokade. And Isreal could not allow that, not because of this case but because of the precedent for future cases.
                              Actually there had been several previous successful attemps to break the blockade in the past year or so. They were low key, and Israel made a decision not to make a fuss and let them go. This time around the organizers deliberately escalated the matter, with a bigger vessel and so on, and this time Israel felt it needed to intervene.

                              The argument that it was in international waters is certainly valid. But you can't see this in isolation. If a nation sees its national interests under threat, in coastal waters or on the high seas, it will tend to act. Moreover, this crowd were deliberately provoking a disproportionate response, and unfortunately Israel fell for it.

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