Delta Adopts Saudi Arabian Airlines' No Jew Policy

[Felipe Garcia]

Thank you for answering that question - as I was just going to ask it!

Another question - if I, as an American, travel to Israel (on Business) and then have to travel to Saudi Arabia/Malaysia/any of the other nations that participate in the "no-Israeli" policy (for Business as well), would I be denied entry to said nation (on the 'passport has an Israeli' stamp rule that was stated earlier), or are there stipulations for that?

Yes. I don't know if the State Dept would give you a 2nd passport so you can fly say TLV-LHR-KUL and then you switch passports midflight between TLV and LHR, or if the Isralelis would be willing to not stamp your passport (supposedly they have done that in the past)

[LUNN]

Thank you for answering that question - as I was just going to ask it!

For Hajj they travel to Jordan, where they handover their Israeli passports to get temporary Jordanian documentation for going to Saudi, BTW Muslims from there includes not just arabs but also Israeli's who have converted to Islam.

[TeeVee]

Thank you for answering that question - as I was just going to ask it!

Another question - if I, as an American, travel to Israel (on Business) and then have to travel to Saudi Arabia/Malaysia/any of the other nations that participate in the "no-Israeli" policy (for Business as well), would I be denied entry to said nation (on the 'passport has an Israeli' stamp rule that was stated earlier), or are there stipulations for that?

apparently, it's not a hard and fast rule. from what i've read on the saudi embassy website, to get a visa you must send them your passport. so you would find out in short order before you flew there.

[brianw999]

They would never destroy the bible, they do not disrespect other religions to that extent, also its very un-Islamic to do such a thing, Jews and Christians lived amongst Muslims in prophet Mohammed's time with no problems in practicing their religion, Israeli Muslims do go perform Hajj there as well.

The Swissair story is fabricated too, SR flew to Saudi uniterrupted for years before going bust here is their network http://www.swissair.aero/ Jeddah and Riyadh were taken over by Swiss International in 2002 upto 2009 when they pulled out due to economic reasons, flew the white cross with no issues whatsoever.

Sad to say that you're wrong about the destruction of the Bible. I witnessed that happen when the Muttaween (short name = religious police, long name = Committee for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice) raided a residence in my living area. The offending book was taken outside and torn to shreds with the residents of the house forced to stand and watch. The eldest male from the house was then taken to the Muttaween "police station" (speech marks used as they are not a valid police force) where he was forced to sign a written apology for bringing the Bible into the Kingdom. He was then put under extreme pressure to renounce his Christianity and convert to Islam. He politely refused whereupon the Muttaween began to beat him around the legs with their long staffs.
It would have got much worse if the local Brigadier of the proper police force had not intervened to secure his release after my boss had contacted the Brigadier.
It's also interesting to note that the formal police, most members of the Saudi Royal Family and most ordinary Saudi citizens dislike the Muttaween intensely.

From Wikipedia re: the Muttaween...

The Mutaween in Saudi Arabia are tasked with enforcing Sharia as defined by the government, specifically by the Committee for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice (CPVPV). The Mutaween of the CPVPV consists of "more than 3,500 officers in addition to thousands of volunteers...often accompanied by a police escort." They have the power to arrest unrelated males and females caught socializing, anyone engaged in homosexual behavior or prostitution; to enforce Islamic dress-codes, and store closures during the prayer time. They enforce Muslim dietary laws, prohibit the consumption or sale of alcoholic beverages and pork, and seize banned consumer products and media regarded as un-Islamic (such as CDs/DVDs of various Western musical groups, television shows and film). Additionally, they actively prevent the practice or proselytizing of other religions within Saudi Arabia, where they are banned. Among the things the Mutaween have been criticized or ridiculed for include, use of flogging to punish violators, banning Valentines Day gifts, arresting priests for saying Mass, and being staffed by "ex-convicts whose only job qualification was that they had memorized the Qur'an in order to reduce their sentences." Perhaps the most serious and widely criticized incident attributed to them occurred on March 11, 2002, when they prevented schoolgirls from escaping a burning school in Mecca, because the girls were not wearing headscarves and abayas (black robes), and not accompanied by a male guardian. Fifteen girls died and 50 were injured as a result. Widespread public criticism followed, both internationally and within Saudi Arabia.In June 2007 the Saudi Mutaween announced "the creation of a 'department of rules and regulations' to ensure the activities of commission members comply with the law, after coming under heavy pressure for the death of two people in its custody in less than two weeks".

On the issue re: Swissair...yup, I was wrong there, they did fly into Jeddah and Riyadh but it is also true that pressure was at one time put on them to remove the white cross on the tailfin, a request which they refused to comply with. This information came from a Swissair manager.

On the subject of alcohol: It used to be permitted in the Kingdom until one day back in 1952 this happened...

1952 was to prove a pivotal year for the House of Saud. One of King Abdullaziz’s sons, Prince Nasir, made an extended trip to America and learned to appreciate wine, women and song. Upon his return to Saudi Arabia, his newly acquired tastes and skill in carousing continued with a series of orgies, famously involving men and women. The partying stopped abruptly one night, when the spirits consumed in vast amounts ended up killing seven, including a few women.

Nasir was imprisoned of course, but the consumption of alcohol remained legal. That was to remain the case until Nasir’s libertine brother, Mishari, got himself drunk one night and went out and shot the British consul dead, and succeeded in seriously wounding the consul’s wife. From that date forward, Saudi Arabia went dry, preferring to ban alcohol than exercise self restraint.”

However, go to any Royal Palace in Saudi (and there hundreds of them !) and you will find a very well stocked bar ! I know that from personal experience.

....and finally,
Traffic lights at road junctions did not appear in the Kingdom until quite recently after the arrival of westerners in the Kingdom. Many Saudis therefore believe that traffic lights are only there to be obeyed by westerners ! Many times I saw a Saudi driver belt through a red light at 120kph+. In my 2.5 years out there I attended in excess of 150 road crashes...EVERY one of them resulted in at least one fatality with the record being set at 9 fatal from a 2 car crash !!
This advice from an internet source advising on driving in Saudi Arabia....

Expatriates driving in Saudi Arabia require special skills. Even if you are an experienced driver having an international driving license, you need to be street-alert while driving in the kingdom. If you are new to the kingdom, the first lesson is to unlearn whatever you have learnt elsewhere! For instance, theory states that whoever reaches a roundabout first has the first priority. In practice, the priority increases proportional to the size of your vehicle – i.e., Might is Right! Looks like the authorities are also fighting a losing battle, which is why you can find traffic lights even in roundabouts, particularly in places like Dammam. Amazing, isn’t it?
Now for some practical tips on driving in Saudi Arabia Theory says that you don’t move your car until the traffic lights turn green. In practice, you slowly inch towards the middle of the intersection even if the lights are red, virtually blocking half the traffic, and zip across as soon as the lights turn yellow for the traffic coming on some other road! Don’t bother about the traffic behind you, what matters is that you have to be the first and ahead of all other cars! God help you, if you are racing ahead and the traffic lights suddenly turn yellow! Theory says that you overtake someone always from the left. In practice, you drive at 160 km/hour in the emergency lane, then race to the extreme left and again zigzag to the extreme right without any indication to the guy behind you. Who cares about road safety, you have a GMC and hence are the king of the road!
Jokes apart, Saudi Arabia has the dubious distinction of the maximum number of road fatalities in the world. Please be extra cautious and always adopt defensive driving while on the road.
By the way, did you know that you are forbidden from driving your friend’s car without permission? One of the readers had specifically asked for this information in my earlier post (click here to read it). Let’s say that your friend is on vacation and you want to use his car during his absence. The procedure requires both of you to go to the police station personally and sign a declaration form in Arabic. The car owner has to attach copies of his iqama, ownership and istemara cards and the person planning to drive the car must also attach his iqama copy and the copy of his driving license.The declaration letter must clearly state the starting and ending days, i.e., the duration for which you would use your friend’s car. The police would then give an authorization letter to you and it is only after this that you can drive your friend’s car. Without this letter, never ever drive any one else’s vehicle. If the car meets with an accident, you would straightaway be imprisoned, so take care. Personally, I would suggest you do not even try driving any one else’s car.

If you ever do go to Saudi Arabia I can guarantee that one thing will happen. Every day something will happen that will make you say "WHAT !!?, surely not ?"

......and if you get the chance and you are on the Red Sea coast then learn to scuba dive. You will not find better coral reefs anywhere else in the world.

[HalcyonDays]

As a rule, the Israelis will agree not to stamp your passport if you ask them. On exit from Israel they will, however, likely ask you why you didn't want your passport stamped. It's better to have two passports. The US State Separtment and UK Foreign Office frequently permit people to have two passports provided you can make the case. It's a little tougher these days but it's still common. Some years ago I knew a guy who had 3 passports legitimately issued - another reason is people still need to travel while visa applications to other countries requiring passports to be sent to embassies are under way.

[TeeVee]

some random quotes...

"The public practice of any form of religion other than Islam is illegal; as is an intention to convert others. The Saudi authorities do, however, accept the private practice of religions other than Islam, and you may bring a Bible into the country as long as it is for your personal use. However, importing larger quantities than this can carry severe penalties, as it will be viewed that it is your intention to convert others." http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-...a/saudi-arabia

"In 2007, there were news reports that according to Saudi policy for tourists it was not permissible to bring non-Muslim religious symbols and books into the kingdom as they were subject to confiscation, and that the U.S. State Department disputed this, saying that the regulation restrictions were no longer in place. ^[21][22] The 2007 U.S The U.S State Department International Religious Freedom report detailed several cases in which bibles were confiscated in Saudi Arabia, but said that there were fewer reports in 2007 of government officials confiscating religious materials than in previous years and no reports that customs officials had confiscated religious materials from travelers.^[23] In 2010, the U.S. State Department also reported reductions in confiscations of religious material, and reported that individuals were able to bring personal Bibles, crosses, DVDs of sermons, and other religious materials into the country without difficulty." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom...n_Saudi_Arabia

bottom line? if you aint muslim, you aint welcome. tolerance? wtf is that???

[Felipe Garcia]

some random quotes...

"The public practice of any form of religion other than Islam is illegal; as is an intention to convert others. The Saudi authorities do, however, accept the private practice of religions other than Islam, and you may bring a Bible into the country as long as it is for your personal use. However, importing larger quantities than this can carry severe penalties, as it will be viewed that it is your intention to convert others." http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-...a/saudi-arabia

"In 2007, there were news reports that according to Saudi policy for tourists it was not permissible to bring non-Muslim religious symbols and books into the kingdom as they were subject to confiscation, and that the U.S. State Department disputed this, saying that the regulation restrictions were no longer in place. ^[21][22] The 2007 U.S The U.S State Department International Religious Freedom report detailed several cases in which bibles were confiscated in Saudi Arabia, but said that there were fewer reports in 2007 of government officials confiscating religious materials than in previous years and no reports that customs officials had confiscated religious materials from travelers.^[23] In 2010, the U.S. State Department also reported reductions in confiscations of religious material, and reported that individuals were able to bring personal Bibles, crosses, DVDs of sermons, and other religious materials into the country without difficulty." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom...n_Saudi_Arabia

bottom line? if you aint muslim, you aint welcome. tolerance? wtf is that???

IMHO, not much different from some towns in the Deep South

[guamainiac]

Such practices and those of Israel are so oppositional the the US Constitution they should expel the "diplomats" and raze the embassies. It turns my stomach when I hear Bush or Obama refer to "My friend the Saudi blah, blah", they show one face and act shocked and then send money flying the other way.

[LUNN]

If your story of bible tearing and non-muslims being whipped to convert is true then please note ll this is its NOT ALLOWED IN ISLAM, the Saudi's are not following it then and have taken on some self made deviant form of it.

um i guess you are so brilliant that you didn't know that saudi arabia is a sharia law jurisdiction. asshat!

My post was deleted and this abusive word stays posted by the moronic bigot which prompted me to cuss him in the first place, double standards.

I repeat the deleted post that no muslim country practices Saudi Wahabi style sharia, but ignorence is bliss for some who are not interested in learning the truth.

[Peter_K]

....and finally,
Traffic lights at road junctions did not appear in the Kingdom until quite recently after the arrival of westerners in the Kingdom. Many Saudis therefore believe that traffic lights are only there to be obeyed by westerners ! Many times I saw a Saudi driver belt through a red light at 120kph+. In my 2.5 years out there I attended in excess of 150 road crashes...EVERY one of them resulted in at least one fatality with the record being set at 9 fatal from a 2 car crash !!
This advice from an internet source advising on driving in Saudi Arabia....

Imagine what a total chaos it would have been if they were to allow women drivers on the roads.

[brianw999]

.....My post was deleted and this abusive word stays posted by the moronic bigot which prompted me to cuss him in the first place, double standards......

My error...missed that one. Duly deleted.

[brianw999]

Imagine what a total chaos it would have been if they were to allow women drivers on the roads.

Don't even go there !!!

...but it's funny to watch the Saudi husband and wife driving over to Bahrain, where women are allowed to drive.....and to watch the wife turf her husband out of the driving seat just as soon as they cross the border !!

Lunn said...

If your story of bible tearing and non-muslims being whipped to convert is true then please note ll this is its NOT ALLOWED IN ISLAM, the Saudi's are not following it then and have taken on some self made deviant form of it.

That's precisely what the Saudis do. They take the Koran and twist its words to suit themselves. They take the word "Inshallah" (meaning God's Will) and use it and therefore their God to cover their own failings.

During Ramadan they fast during the day and whoop it up at night.....but most, not all, but most do little or nothing in the way of work during the day. I used to draw up the rota's where I worked. We worked 4 x 12hr shifts per week. I was instructed to allocate no more than 4 x 6hr shifts for the Islamic employees with no loss of pay. If a western worker took time off they didn't get paid and would probably have their contract terminated for taking the time off.

[Felipe Garcia]

During Ramadan they fast during the day and whoop it up at night.....but most, not all, but most do little or nothing in the way of work during the day. I used to draw up the rota's where I worked. We worked 4 x 12hr shifts per week. I was instructed to allocate no more than 4 x 6hr shifts for the Islamic employees with no loss of pay. If a western worker took time off they didn't get paid and would probably have their contract terminated for taking the time off.

My friends in high school used to do that a lot, because they weren't even supposed to drink water, their parents sent the PE coach a note asking for an excuse. Since the school was an international school where all cultures were respected and accepted, the coaches had no choice but to let them do nothing. And they would fast from 7 to 7, which meant eating 3 meals between 7:01pm and 6:59 am and fasting from 7AM to 7 PM.



On the other hand, search "crazy saudi driving" on Youtube. Nvm, I did it for you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJupNDIKkEk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6vj9vfqa8s&feature=related

And notice they even have the courtesy of using their 4-ways!

[brianw999]

Aaaaah yes...good old "Highway Skating". That sees a few of them off every year.

And the kid driving ? The frightening thing is that, although he's sitting on dad's lap in the video, it can be legal for kids that young to drive. I don't know about nowadays but in the early/mid 1990's, if the father of the household died then the eldest son took on his rights and responsibilities...including his driving licence !
It wasn't unusual to see a 12 year old sitting on a booster seat with pedal extensions driving a big V8 Chevy.
There wasn't any official vehicle safety testing then either. A good tyre would be one that held its air pressure !! regardless of whether or not there was any tread on the casing. Not unusual to see tyres down to the white casing !!

I did however see one incident of careful and considerate driving.

A guy driving a Toyota pick up overtook our ambulance and he and the passenger were wearing a seatbelt which was very unusual.

Mind you.....the driver's wife was sitting in the dusty open back in 140+ degrees Fahrenheit/60 deg Celcius surrounded by shopping bags !!!......and did I mention that the front seat passenger was a goat ?

[guamainiac]

I guess it was a Billy and not a Nanny goat?