Delta Adopts Saudi Arabian Airlines' No Jew Policy

[B757300]

JERUSALEM (RNS) Jews and Israelis, or passengers carrying any non-Islamic article of faith, will not be able to fly code-share flights from the U.S. to Saudi Arabia under Delta Air Line's new partnership with Saudi Arabian Airlines that is set to begin in 2012.

Although Delta announced in January that the Saudi airline would join its SkyTeam network next year, the implications of the deal only came to light recently, according to people who have scrutinized the details.

Saudi Arabia, which is governed by strict Islamic law, requires citizens of almost every country to obtain a visa. People who wish to enter the country must have a sponsor; women, who must be dressed according to Saudi standards of modesty, must be met at the Saudi airport by a man who will act as a chaperone.

Saudi Arabia bans anyone with an Israeli stamp in their passport from entering the country, even in transit. Many Jews believe the kingdom has also withheld visas from travelers with Jewish-sounding names.

Religious items such as Bibles that are not related to Islam may be confiscated at the airport.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/23/us-jews-not-able-to-fly-o_n_883568.html

I intentionally selected The Huffington Post as a source because if I selected anything which was remotely considered "conservative," such as Fox News, since most comments would be about the source of the article rather than the article itself.

Now, Delta has said they "do not discriminate," but then followed with "We, like all international airlines, are required to comply with all applicable laws governing entry into every country we serve."

[TeeVee]

what is most despicable about this is that a US airline will whore itself, its employees, and shareholders for a buck. fuck saudi arabia and every other intolerant country and people.

since any US "flagged" aircraft is sovereign US territory, i'd love to see someone sue the shit out of delta and win, putting them out of business. nice dream, i know....

[Felipe Garcia]

Seems like the news about Ryan Dunn's death are no longer selling newspapers.

I don't know of any Jewish person who is anxious of going to Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia doesn't accept passports with Israeli stamps or Israeli passports (I believe they DO NOT recognize Israel as a country, just like some other countries in the region).

Freedom of religion does not really exist over there, and it's well known that the Comission of Vice and Virtue has confiscated non-Islamic religious symbols.

I'd like to see Delta's press release before jumping to any conclusions.

[CathayPacific]

Airlines operating international flights have the responsibilities to make sure that the passengers they are carrying will gain entry into the destination country. Otherwise, they are responsible to fly the expelled passenger back to the departure city and they may be fined or banned from flying to the destination country if that happens too often. This is normal practice.

Since Saudi Arabia requires entry visa to almost everyone from all nationalities, any airline flying there will need to make sure its passengers have the valid documents (i.e. visa) before they board the flights to Saudi Arabia. Since Saudi Arabia will not issue visa to any people with Israeli passports or any people with an Israeli entry stamp on their passports (regardless of nationalities), the airlines are just following normal practice if they deny boarding to passengers without the visa.

And denying visa application to Israeli passports and any people with Israeli stamps on their passports is NOT an exclusive Saudi practice, most Muslim countries have the same policy. Whether you think it's right or not or whether you like it does not matter. It's within their sovereign power to do so. Countries from Kuwait to UAE to Bangladesh to Malaysia to Indonesia have the same policy.

Skyteam will run into the same "issue" with MEA and Garuda. And oneworld will soon have the same problem with MH. Star does not have problems with Egyptair because Egypt (and Jordan) are the only Arab countries that has normal relationship with Israel.

But this is not Delta's problem, nor is it the problem of the alliance or admitting SV into an alliance. This is part of the geopolitical reality that the airlines are not supposed (and have no ability whatsoever) to solve. For the same reason, El Al will never be admitted into any of the three alliance, and they know it so they didn't even bother to ask.

In any case, the airlines are just following the international travel rules that have been in place since the days that international flights begin. Similarly, if you don't have an Australian visa (for whatever reasons) and trying to board a United flight to Sydney from LAX, you will be denied boarding at LAX by UA. It's as simple as that. If one day suddenly Australia says they are not going to issue any visa to Hispanic people, and so UA denies boarding to all Hispanics on their SYD flights, is it discrimination by UA against Hispanics? Hardly so.

[SAMRPICS]

Its unfortunate for Delta because it makes the company look bad, but in this one since they are bound by international laws not just US laws there is literally nothing they can do about it. Unfortunately there is no way round it. To be completely honest Israel has the same laws about people who have been to certain countries entering their country and i wouldnt be supprised to learn that they dont let the muslim community in either not that i can see any of the muslim community wanting to go there anyways.

[TeeVee]

ahhh the ubiquitous double standard. funny thing is, el al DOES allow muslims onboard its aircraft and israel DOES allow muslims to enter the country and has NO automatic prohibition against ANYONE from ANY COUNTRY or with a stamp from ANY COUNTRY.

on the other hand, these LOVELY places will bar you with even an isareli stamp in your passport: Bahrain, Iran, Kuwait, Libya, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Syria, and Yemen. however, the "rule" or law appears to not be uniformly applied.

yes folks, these are all high on the lost of places i would love to see. not.

as for respecting other countries' laws as cathay pacific suggests, my answer is simply this: if your country fails or refuses to recognize the validity of a country that we recognize, we should treat you the same way. so for example, malaysia, which does not recognize israel's statehood, should not be recognized by the US. and all malaysians should be barred entry from the US. ditto for every other country that falls in the same boat as malaysia.

not to get on an anti-muslim rant here, but how much muslim intolerance is the rest of the non-muslim world supposed to accept? why is it that a civilised society allows this tremendous double standard to perpetuate? what ever happened to treating others the way they treat you? hmmm, i can't go to your country? ok, fine. you can't come to mine.

[TeeVee]

Its unfortunate for Delta because it makes the company look bad, but in this one since they are bound by international laws not just US laws there is literally nothing they can do about it. Unfortunately there is no way round it. To be completely honest Israel has the same laws about people who have been to certain countries entering their country and i wouldnt be supprised to learn that they dont let the muslim community in either not that i can see any of the muslim community wanting to go there anyways.

please provide me with the list of countries to which people have been which will automatically prevent their entry into israel.

total BS my friend

[TeeVee]

and the saudi embassy's website states quite clearly that private practice of other religions is permitted and one is ALLOWED to have a bible. it also makes ZERO mention of anyone from anywhere being automatically excluded. i guess the huffingtonpost author needs to do some better fact checking, eh?

[Peter Kesternich]

(...)

as for respecting other countries' laws as cathay pacific suggests, my answer is simply this: if your country fails or refuses to recognize the validity of a country that we recognize, we should treat you the same way. so for example, malaysia, which does not recognize israel's statehood, should not be recognized by the US. and all malaysians should be barred entry from the US. ditto for every other country that falls in the same boat as malaysia.

What business would the US have in telling other countries which countries to recognize and which countries not to recognize?
Just to set one thing straight - the countries mentioned above don't discriminate against Jews, they discriminate against Israel and Israelis. That's a big difference.

not to get on an anti-muslim rant here, but how much muslim intolerance is the rest of the non-muslim world supposed to accept? why is it that a civilised society allows this tremendous double standard to perpetuate? what ever happened to treating others the way they treat you? (...)

Well - I think Palestinians and Israelis have gotten quite good at treating each other badly, using everything from stones to F-15s.

[Felipe Garcia]

as for respecting other countries' laws as cathay pacific suggests, my answer is simply this: if your country fails or refuses to recognize the validity of a country that we recognize, we should treat you the same way. so for example, malaysia, which does not recognize israel's statehood, should not be recognized by the US. and all malaysians should be barred entry from the US. ditto for every other country that falls in the same boat as malaysia.

Kosovo is also recognized by the US and 76 other states, however, it is not recognized by:
Algeria, Argentina, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Barbados, Bangladesh, Bahamas, Belarus, Bhutan, Benin, Bolivia, Bosnia Herzegovina, Botswana, Brazil, Brunei, Burundi, Cameroon, Cape Verde, Central African Republic, Chile, PRC, and the list goes on an on. Mexico, Spain, Russia, ISRAEL and Ukraine are also included in that list.

Shoving down your foreignn policy down other cultures' throat is not good foreign policy.

As far as I know, there are no countries which a visit would automatically disqualify you from entering Israel, but in every country the immigration officer has final say on whether you can go in or not. If I try to come into the US with several Cuban stamps I'm likely to be questioned and my entry possibly denied, it is the same with stamps from countries which sponsor terrorism (Iran, Syria, etc). If you watch Top Gear, in the Iraqi special they mentioned something about not being able to enter Israel after going through Syria, so at a Border crossing in Jordan I believe, they swapped passports with a new one and Clarkson said something like dirty passport and clean passport. It is common practice to carry double passports in the Middle East. Some countries can also refuse you entry with an Egyptian Sinai Crossing stamp, as that is evidence of leaving Israel.

[SAMRPICS]

I heard cant recall where from that Israel will not let persons with Syrian stamps enter the country although this could also just have come from rumours. Also what you need to remember is that what a country says and what a country does is not always be the same.
With Israel having been attacked by Syria in the not to distant past i wouldnt be shocked to discover that people with Syrian passports or even Syrian stamps in their passports would be refused entry.

[HalcyonDays]

I have entered Israel several times with numerous Arab country stamps in my passport. No bid deal, but of course you open yourself up to questions from the Israelis on arrival, and even more, oddly, on departure. Certainly good idea to have two passports/dual citizenship etc.in that part of the world.

I have also known Jews entering Saudi Arabia - depends on how discreet you can be.

[Gabriel]

In any case, the airlines are just following the international travel rules that have been in place since the days that international flights begin. Similarly, if you don't have an Australian visa (for whatever reasons) and trying to board a United flight to Sydney from LAX, you will be denied boarding at LAX by UA. It's as simple as that. If one day suddenly Australia says they are not going to issue any visa to Hispanic people, and so UA denies boarding to all Hispanics on their SYD flights, is it discrimination by UA against Hispanics? Hardly so.

There is a thing called Human Rights.

If Australia denied a visa only because the nationality of a person, that would be discrimination, by Australia, not by the Airline. But the airline would be its accomplice.

Now, say that a country requires that women that have their face not covered are immediately punished with a whip... What would the captain of a Delta flight bound to that country do if a female passenger lifts its veil?

I know that Delta can't do much about that, except... not to fly there.
And I can't believe that the airline networks are accepting airlines that discriminate people based on their nationality, religion or clothes, and hence violate human rights. Be it by own initiative or by the regulation of the countries they attend.

[brianw999]

I lived and worked in Saudi Arabia for 2.5 years so I do know a little about the country and its rather "slanted" view of its application of Islamic rules.

1. I could read the Bible in my own house but could not invite others to join me.

....but....

2. If a copy of the Bible was found in my baggage (which was thoroughly searched every time I entered the Kingdom) it would be seized and destroyed and I could face arrest and deportation.

3. If an Israeli entry visa was found in my passport I would be refused entry.

4. I went on holiday to Israel while working in the Kingdom (via Cyprus both ways) ....the Israeli's supplied a removeable page for my passport visa that could be destroyed or kept outside of the Kingdom when I explained that I worked in Saudi Arabia.

5. Alcohol is banned in Saudi Arabia....

.....but....

6. My liver breathed a sigh of relief when I left on my final exit visa !!

In summary ?....

Delta will have to be seen to abide by Saudi Arabian rules when entering the Kingdom....but rules are very often flexible !

...and the best one I ever heard aviation wise ?

Swissair were told to paint out the white cross on their tail fins if they wanted to operate into Saudi Arabia.
I'm not sure what the Swiss is for "Fuck You"....but that was rumoured to be their answer and they never did go to Saudi Arabia.

Funny how so many rich RagHeads have Swiss bank accounts though

[Vnav]

I know that Delta can't do much about that, except... not to fly there.

Delta does not fly to Saudi Arabia. Delta has no plans to fly to Saudi Arabia.

This story couldn't be more overblown.....the plans for Skyteam to admit Saudi Arabian Airlines were announced back in January. It's only now that some Right Wing Yahoo has picked up the story and misinterpreted the agreement and gone running to the Drudge report and Worldnet daily. As part of the Skyteam agreement, Delta specifically declined to codeshare with Saudi Arabian and there will be no Frequent Flyer program benefits between the two. The only agreement reached was an interline agreement that allows you to fly on multiple airlines under a single Record number and allows for coordination of baggage transfer. These interline agreements are standard throughout the industry and there are several US airlines that already have them with Saudi airlines. The other major airline alliances also have them and several non-US members of those alliances actually fly to Saudi Arabia and must comply with the same Visa/Custom restriction.

Unfortunately, Delta does not run Skyteam. There are a number of other airlines who have a vote. While Skyteam as a whole voted in the Saudis, Delta has opted to go for the lowest level of involvement in the form of the interline agreement. My guess is that if they were thinking of eventually upping that involvement, this ridiculous viral newstory will make them think twice