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Eastern Airlines 737-700 (Mike Pence Campaign Aircraft) Off the Runway at LGA

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
    How do you know that the approach was not stabilized? (or that it floated?)
    Well, a stable ILS descent is going to plant them no more than 1000' past the threshold, right? So then how do you manage a 3600' roll out and only lose 3kts of speed? Conversely, how do you touchdown beyond 4000' from a stable approach unless you are floating? Unless they landed in the TDZ and ADDED power for some reason I can't imagine how they get from a stable approach to 4,600' at 132kts on the ground. Botched go-around followed by an emergency stop? It doesn't fit.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Evan View Post
      ...I can't imagine how they get from a stable approach to 4,600' at 132kts on the ground...
      Indeed.

      Passing judgment with a keyboard does not help one visualize how 4600 feet can pass in an airplane.

      I suggest some time on MSFS or maybe a bicycle ride.
      Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Evan View Post
        how do you manage a 3600' roll out and only lose 3kts of speed?
        Ask TAM at Congonhas.

        And how do you float 3600' and you lose only 3 kts?

        I am not saying that this was not an unstabilzed approach. Just that we don't have enough information to say it was. In either case, losing only 3 kts makes no sense, neither floating nor on the ground, unless you have significant forward thrust. As you said, it doesn't fit.

        --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
        --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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        • #19
          A device that automatically helps planes reduce speed on landing was not functioning on the campaign plane carrying Republican vice-presidential nominee Mike Pence that ran off the end of a runway Thursday night at LaGuardia Airport, a federal safety official said Friday.

          The spoilers on the planes’ wings that create drag normally deploy automatically about one second after landing, but had to be deployed manually by the pilot of the Pence plane about four seconds after touch down, the official said.

          The automatic feature on the device, called a speed brake actuator, had been inoperable for two days, said Robert Sumwalt, a member of the National Transportation Safety Board. It was not known whether the pilot of the plane was aware of the problem, and Sumwalt said the crew would be interviewed Saturday.
          http://www.newsday.com/news/new-york...way-1.12518698

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          • #20
            So, basically, the plane was broken for 4 days? What airline?

            Edit: Whoa. I read the thread heading carelessly. When I saw "Eastern Airlines", suddenly I wondered if it could be right. Didn't that name equate to some big air disaster and eventual disappearance? So now, enough time has slid by that the company title isn't radioactive anymore?

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            • #21
              Originally posted by 3WE View Post
              Perhaps this is off topic, but say anything, live fast and do anything with no concern for whether it makes fundamental nor procedural sense, and nothing but mud slinging...the state of USA politics and a particular 737 today.
              Mudslinging it was. Do you know what happens with that 737 today?

              As we today face a 757, there is another question. Since November 9th, 2016, has there been or will there be a change, for us, here at jetphotos?

              Since that day I thought, should I change my signature or not. But with your 'help' and as you mentioned it first, I will.
              That's what airlines are good for, amongst others,
              The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
              And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
              Aviation enthusiast, since more than 35 years with home airport EDDL.

              Comment


              • #22
                Sorry guys, very definitely off topic.
                If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
                  Sorry guys, very definitely off topic.
                  I can live with your decision to move that topic. Probably it indeed is unimportant for aviation in Europe and beyond the pond.

                  But imho 3WE did the right thing. He at least made it possible to ask the question... whether it is important. Thanks to 3WE.
                  That's what airlines are good for, amongst others,
                  The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
                  And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
                  Aviation enthusiast, since more than 35 years with home airport EDDL.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    In my eyes, the 757 with the big letters has been supported by people who fear to lose money. And if they're honest, that does NOT affect the following people:
                    TeeVee.

                    And, among the people who sometimes appear on TV, a comparable disappointment is
                    Mr Lester Holt.

                    There are people who sometimes can be very convincing in positions that they haven't owned since 1978, I know that. But Lester Holt as an opponent of the 757, and I watched the debate on TV, is not a joke. That has been a conscious fake.

                    People who fear to lose money.

                    I recommend: 'Stupid white men' (paperback). Which is a book about Florida in the year 2002. Very interesting. History repeating.

                    Michael Moore* chose quite drastic words for a phenomenon that again happened last Wednesday. But behind that words is the truth. The 757 gathered the electoral votes south of Orlando and North of Miami, in a region where people live who regard college as not so very important.
                    I think Holt calls it 'the rural America'.
                    *(a prominent East Coast filmmaker, born in 1954, who somehow saw the unsecure 757 with the big letters comin' already in 2002. Why unsecure. Because of teleprompter and a foreign policy that, even 72 hours after the election is.. unsecure!).

                    But how a professional female politician could have lost an election although the majority (!)
                    of all humans in the USA
                    , plus - if we can trust a major newspaper in Hamburg which appears weekly - some people in Europe,
                    stands strong for her,
                    that remains an unknown secret for me. Did it happen because she is a woman?

                    So, President Obama should feel free to say one or two words, as long as he is able to use the VC-25, not necessarily about that book, but about what he thinks is the reason for
                    'white men, older than 40, without College education'
                    to support the 757 with the big letters, or in other words, a pessimistic billionaire.

                    I hope that this is not a fake. Welcome to Germany again, President Obama.
                    Last edited by LH-B744; 2016-11-11, 07:18. Reason: The - not always silent - Majority.
                    That's what airlines are good for, amongst others,
                    The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
                    And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
                    Aviation enthusiast, since more than 35 years with home airport EDDL.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      To anyone who's seen the movie "Idiocracy", the events of the last few days will seem very familiar.
                      Be alert! America needs more lerts.

                      Eric Law

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
                        Sorry guys, very definitely off topic.
                        LOL, wrong... the original post was made when the VP candidate's plane ran of the runway due to an ALLEGED unstable approach. I did use a modicum of sarcasm to draw paralells. Please return this to Aviation Safety and merge it with the other thread "Eastern 737 runs off end".
                        Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Happy now ?

                          It would have saved a lot of confusion if the political comment thread had been more obviously connected to the B737 runoff.
                          If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                            Ask TAM at Congonhas.

                            And how do you float 3600' and you lose only 3 kts?

                            I am not saying that this was not an unstabilzed approach. Just that we don't have enough information to say it was. In either case, losing only 3 kts makes no sense, neither floating nor on the ground, unless you have significant forward thrust. As you said, it doesn't fit.
                            ...as we beat 'stabilized approach' to death (which seems extremely unlikely)

                            ...and beat 'floating' to death (it can happen if folks are 'hunting' for a smooth touchdown).

                            ...we largely overlooked a gross violation of an extremely simple, fundamental, basic rule: If you aren't down by the first 1/3 of the runway, go around.

                            Maybe that rule's not valid for a 14,000 ft Denver special, but on a 7000-ft runway, that rule of thumb actually starts having a shred of genuine math behind it.

                            Again, we have gross violation of some basic stuff, while I bet if we listen to the CVR, the crew does an excellent job going through the motions of a LOT of 'good-practice-good-CRM-QRH-FCOM-ETC-procedures'.

                            Why do we forget the basics?
                            Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/02/politi...dia/index.html

                              Some notable quotes:

                              The plane carrying then-vice presidential candidate Mike Pence that skidded off a New York runway last fall was nearly 2,000 feet off the normal touchdown point and skidded off the landing strip at about 45 miles per hour, according to new details released by the National Transportation Safety Board.

                              ...

                              In a transcript of the plane's cockpit voice recorder, the pilots can be heard talking about the incident shortly after the plane stops.
                              "We should have went around," one of the pilots says, according to the transcript.
                              "My career just ended," one adds as they prepare the plane for shut down. "Mine too," the other replies.
                              A Secret Service agent is recorded entering the cockpit to check on the situation. After being assured no evacuation is necessary, he compliments the pilots.
                              "Nice job," the agent tells the pilots, according to the transcript.
                              "Huh?" one of the pilots responds.
                              "Nice job. You stopped at least," the agent replies.

                              ...

                              First officer Diego Restrepo told investigators he later realized the captain, Robert Galloway, had started trying to control the plane as they were rolling down the runway, without announcing he was taking over.
                              "He felt that there was a 'lack of communication' as he did not hear the captain say, 'I have control,'" according to a summary of the first officer's interview. "After they had stopped, the captain had said he was trying to get off on the last taxiway. Then, he (the first officer) realized that the captain was also on the controls when he was."
                              The first officer also declined to answer several questions about the captain.
                              "When asked how he enjoyed flying with the captain, he declined to provide an answer," a document says. "When asked about the captain's proficiency or for areas that could be improved, when compared to others he had flown with, he declined to answer."

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Perhaps we should file this under 'big hours mean nothing'.

                                Capt (58, ATPL, 20,638 hours total, 3000 hours on type thereof 202 in command) was pilot monitoring. The F/O, with only 225 hours on type, got into a float (ROD '0' at 2,500' down the runway). PIC then says "down down down down you're three thousand feet remaining" instead of "go around".

                                And then a delay of 4.5 sec after touchdown for manual ground spoilers (autospoilers was MEL'd, this was briefed during the approach). And a further 1650' past the touch down point before deploying reversers.

                                And violating the sterile cockpit rule.

                                Bad habits take time?

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