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Transport Category Aircraft - Flapless Landings

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  • Transport Category Aircraft - Flapless Landings

    Hi guys.

    Whilst editing some shots from Narita I noticed some frames of a Philippine A330 conducting a flapless landing. The nose attitude was very high, and the tail clearance on touchdown negligible. The slats were extended.
    [photoid=5630943]
    I'm not sure about the A330, but on the 767 a flaps only landing is conducted at Vref 30+30, so around 160 knots. There's a warning in the checklist "Reduced tail clearance on landing". With all flaps and slats up it is Vref 30+50!

    Does anyone have any figures for the A330 as it positivly screamed past us!?

  • #2
    Advise from an A330 pilot is that the reference speed is increased by 30 knots and landing distance increased by 50%.

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    • #3
      Thanks for the info AJ. Other than flap malfunctions, are there any other reasons that one would do a zero flap landing in a transport category aircraft? I know in light aircraft we do them all the time. In the seminole I would never use the flaps for any landing that was following an instrument approach. This was simply because our SOPs reccomend flying the approach at 110kts and having whatever flaps you are using for landing out by the final approach fix. the problem with that is that Vfe in the seminole is 111kts. Also they weren't exactly needed either as they really only decreased the stall speed 2 knots and runway distances were never a problem around here.

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      • #4
        I can't think of any reason that you would conduct a zero flap landing other than following a non-normal situation.

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        • #5
          No flaps landings are a non normal for us, and limited to CA only. Unless the reason is for a pitch jam where the FO has the good stick.

          We have ref speeds on our cards for flaps 0, and the runway requirements go upwards of 6,000 ft for a 100/200, and 7,000 for a 300.

          Book says to gradually reduce torque so that you're at or near flight idle at touchdown, and max pitch attitude is 8 deg for the short body, and 6 deg for the 300.

          We do them in the sim every year, and it doesn't seem like a big deal to me. Requires extra nose up trim and more attention close to the ground, but my first attempts with no flaps were better than the ones where I was using them.
          Bite me Airways.....

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          • #6
            I have just been informed of another cause of problems for the Airbus flap/slat system. If the Captain's clock date has ben changed by more than 10 days the flaps and slats will not extend

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            • #7
              Originally posted by AJ
              I have just been informed of another cause of problems for the Airbus flap/slat system. If the Captain's clock date has ben changed by more than 10 days the flaps and slats will not extend
              lol

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              • #8
                Sad.....
                Bite me Airways.....

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                • #9
                  I was in the 762 when we did a slats only takeoff, that kicked butt. Seemed like a much longer roll, faster, and nose high. I liked it a lot .
                  Ryan Davis
                  Admin, FlyerGuide.Net
                  www.flyerguide.net

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by screaming_emu
                    I know in light aircraft we do them all the time. In the seminole I would never use the flaps for any landing that was following an instrument approach. This was simply because our SOPs reccomend flying the approach at 110kts and having whatever flaps you are using for landing out by the final approach fix. the problem with that is that Vfe in the seminole is 111kts. Also they weren't exactly needed either as they really only decreased the stall speed 2 knots and runway distances were never a problem around here.
                    I'd be careful with the no-flap landings in the Seminole, not to say you cannot do them. ATP's standard ops call for the flaps to be at 25 for every landing for the simple reason that you'll get a gear warning horn at that setting if the gear isn't down yet.

                    Mike
                    Van Hoolio's JP.net Photos
                    lp.org

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Flaps up landings in the 727 are flown at the Flaps 30 Vref+55. If a flaps up landing was to be attempted around the MGLW of 164,000 (161 in some) your Vref would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 195 knots! When you get that fast, you have to start being concerned about exceeding maximum tire speed (196 knots!).

                      So assuming the weather is good, we would dump to minimum fuel to get our Vref as low as possible.

                      In the Falcon 20, it was in the neighborhood of 140-150 knots. The airplane had an amazing glide ratio. In the simulator when I was doing my type rating, they taught us to do a no flap landing by getting to the OM on speed (155 kts) and pulling the power to idle. Then fly 155 knots all the way to the runway. The airplane flew a perfect 3 degree glidepath, it really was quite amazing.
                      Anybody can fly a round airplane....

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by N9103M
                        Flaps up landings in the 727 are flown at the Flaps 30 Vref+55. If a flaps up landing was to be attempted around the MGLW of 164,000 (161 in some) your Vref would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 195 knots! When you get that fast, you have to start being concerned about exceeding maximum tire speed (196 knots!).
                        Dunno if you remember this from youre days at Pineapple, but isn't the zero flap landing speed like 1 or 2 knots from the max tire speed in the CRJ?

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                        • #13
                          You're correct Joe, the CRJ can also get very close to max tire speed with the flaps up. Max tire speed on the CRJ is 182, and a flapless Vref is around 170 depending on landing weight.

                          No flap landings are definately an abnormal procedure, and have always been Captain's only procedures at most companies I have worked at. Flaps up landings are a required manuver on a Captain's checkride and in any type rating checkride.
                          Anybody can fly a round airplane....

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                          • #14
                            How in the hell do you deal with all that cold up there at UND?

                            I was looking at your thingy on the bottom, and it says 3 degrees.... Talk about having your chick freeze up on you.....
                            Bite me Airways.....

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by LRJet Guy
                              How in the hell do you deal with all that cold up there at UND?

                              I was looking at your thingy on the bottom, and it says 3 degrees.... Talk about having your chick freeze up on you.....
                              Yeah, I was wondering the same thing while walking the mile from campus back to my apartment. You really do get used to it though. As long as its above 0 I'm usuallly pretty happy. The temperature is one thing, but when its windy (pretty much all the time) is when it becomes unbearable. Though I will say, it is difficult to make sure you do a thurough preflight when all you want to do is get in the plane and get it fired up so you can stay warm. We call it the extreme preflight . This weather is nothing though, two years ago I saw -43.6F, and that's not counting wind chill. Here is an old screenshot I took.

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