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  • Short Runway Training

    The recent overrun by the Southwest Airlines 737-7H4 at Midway brings home again the importance of landing training.

    I trained on the 767 in the aftermath our my own airline's overrun of a Boeing 747-438 at Bangkok. Landing on contaminated runways was a huge factor in the training, as was aim point retention. As a result we as trainees became paranoid of deep landings and were consistantly pounding into the touchdown zone to avoid a fail. Our aircraft also record the touchdown parameters and any indications of a 'rushed approach' on the QAR.

    My question is how other air carriers have been addressing this issue? It can be difficult when the majority of landings are on 12,000'+ runways to get in the mindset for the 7,000' runway at Narita in a typhoon!

  • #2
    Have you had to do that Narita landing yet AJ? Here at PVD we've got a 7166ft runway. An MD80 ran off it by a few feet once, but it was raining and foggy and it ended up landing half way down. We get the occasional 767-300 from Delta here for the Patriots charter during football season as well. Usually just lands normally. It's even came in on the 6000ft runway when the winds were right.

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    • #3
      Here at NZCH we had a crosswind runway used when the wind is strong NW, it comes out at about 5,700ft in length. If the wind is strong enough, the afternoon QF 763 from Sydney will land on it(or at least attempt to, i've seen at least 2 go arounds by a 763 on this runway ). AJ have you landed on 29 here?

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      • #4
        I have been pilot flying onto Runway 16L and 34R at Narita. It is a difficult runway due to it being very wide and very short, so it looks odd on final. It is not uncommon to have 50 knots plus of crosswind down to 100' so it can be very destabilising as you approach the flare. Many Captain's do not give that sector to the FO! Apparently the only overrun there was an Air Japan 767 in 2003.

        As for Christchurch I haven't had the joy of being PF onto Runway 29, I've only departed from it.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by AJ
          Our aircraft also record the touchdown parameters and any indications of a 'rushed approach' on the QAR.
          Might I ask what the QAR is? Also what does it determine is a rushed approach, one that is done at a considerably higher airspeed than usual, or do they just ook to see if it was stabilized?

          As for short field landings, here we're taught the usual short field landing procedures for light aircraft. I would like to see more instructors use a scenario to demonstrate this however. We dont really have any extremely short paved runways in the area here, so I think it would be a good idea to say "ok, the runway ends at the XX centerline stripe, if you dont think you'll make it, go around". The important part is to get the plane down and get it stopped. You can have the smoothest landing ever, but it doesn't matter how smooth the touchdown is if you go screaming off the end of the runway.

          Another question AJ, do you guys use any aerodynamic braking with the elevator/stabilator like you do in smaller aircraft? I would imagine compared to the spoilers, reverse thrusters, and the wheel brakes the effect would be rather negligable.
          Last edited by screaming_emu; 2005-12-12, 05:04.

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          • #6
            Joe, a QAR is a Quick Access Recorder that records parameters like an FDR. It also records soft alerts and hard alerts if parameters are exceeded. The parameters that can indicate a rushed approach and/or deep landing include speed, rate of descent, late landing flap selection and touchdown point. They can produce graphic representations of these approaches for display to us on training days. Very interesting!

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            • #7
              Originally posted by AJ
              Joe, a QAR is a Quick Access Recorder that records parameters like an FDR. It also records soft alerts and hard alerts if parameters are exceeded. The parameters that can indicate a rushed approach and/or deep landing include speed, rate of descent, late landing flap selection and touchdown point. They can produce graphic representations of these approaches for display to us on training days. Very interesting!
              That's pretty neat. I always thought it would be an interesting idea for our training fleet here to have something that used the GPS to track our flight and give us a little printout at the end. Our simulators do this so you can see how well you stayed on course for the approach. Probably wouldnt be very cost effective for a small airplane though.

              Thanks for the quick answer.

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              • #8
                We don't really have to train anything like that at my company. We use a few short runways (lots of short runways if you're in a jet). Our manuals state the airplane must be on the ground in the first third of the runway. There are very few places where it gets tight for us.
                Bite me Airways.....

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                • #9
                  During our training they pound into us a landing point of 1500ft +/- 500ft into the runway. During checks, you can do a heavyish landing and as long as it is within the limits, they are happy. Do a smooth landing at 1600ft and you get into trouble.

                  We also have QAR data and this is released to us every quarter so that the fleets can recognise where they need to improve. Normally it is indeed the approaches where high speeds and late landing flap were extended which get the most attention. I am glad to say the 777 has by far the best data in the company.

                  As for the short runway in NRT, in our company only the A330 and 777-200 are allowed to use it, and only Captains are allowed to do a landing there. I guess they don't trust us lowly FOs! haha.
                  Have a look at my photos, including Kai Tak crazy landings!http://www.jetphotos.net/showphotos.php?userid=460

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                  • #10
                    It's good to see airlines are giving there pilots proper training for these incidents!

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Sam Hampson
                      It's good to see airlines are giving there pilots proper training for these incidents!
                      What do you expect? They are flying the company's planes that cost millions!

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                      • #12
                        AJ,

                        Who (the Captain, the boss etc) and when (during pre-flight briefing, shortly before the descent) is it decided which pilot will perform the takeoff and/or landing?

                        Thanks,

                        Dale

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                        • #13
                          At flight planning generally Dale. There are certain conditions that mandate the Captain to be PF, such as low visibility operations or crosswinds approaching the aircraft's limits.

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                          • #14
                            Ah okay, thanks for that.

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                            • #15
                              Normally it's a:

                              "which one do you want to do?"

                              "Not really bothered. Whatever."

                              "Yeah ok, you take it up there then"

                              "ok."
                              Have a look at my photos, including Kai Tak crazy landings!http://www.jetphotos.net/showphotos.php?userid=460

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