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  • JordanD
    replied
    Thanks for all the info.

    Leave a comment:


  • atcvector
    replied
    Originally posted by screaming_emu
    When an aircraft is delayed by ATC for a somewhat reasonable amount of time, it doesn't make sense to taxi all the way back to the gate. Also, ATC needs that plane to be ready to go as soon as the Expect Further Clearance Time arrives, so it makes more sense to put them into the "penalty box" right near the runway.

    Aircraft are rarely delayed by ATC. The delays come from the airlines scheduling more arrivals and departures than an airport can handle at any given time. DFW used to be a prime example of this. During one period of the day something like 130 airplanes were scheduled to arrive in a given hour. With everything working perfectly DFW could land 90 of those airplanes in that hour (these are approximate numbers) with this practice delays are going to happen. So the delays come from the airlines overscheduling an airports capacity.

    Back to the penalty box. Sometimes an arriving airplane is sent to the box if their gate is full. Again a company problem, not an ATC delay.

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  • PortColumbus
    replied
    Originally posted by screaming_emu
    Also, ATC needs that plane to be ready to go as soon as the Expect Further Clearance Time arrives,.
    EDCT - Expect Departure Clearance Time

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  • CAPFlyer
    replied
    Several airports actually have designated penalty boxes as well. Denver uses the de-icing ramps (unless it's snowing) and has several "run-up" areas that are also listed as penalty boxes on the Jeppessen Charts. Las Vegas and I believe Phoenix also have charted hold/penalty box areas that are used for aircraft.

    The most common reason to go into the penalty box is for "flow control". This could be for any number of reasons, usually weather, but also due to airspace congestion at nearby airports (especially the case with New York) and occasionally "special events" like the arrival/departure of high-ranking civilian officials (like the Pres or VP).

    Also, storms aren't the only kind of weather that will cause flow control to go into effect, especially at a few airports on the East coast. If the winds aren't right, the number of aircraft that the airport can handle is severely restricted (or in the case of New York, if the winds are wrong the flow gets restricted due to the vectors required to keep everyone separated between EWR, JFK, & LGA) and thus they will begin flow controlling aircraft departing.

    In the US, all of this flow controlling is actually done by a computer that takes the flightplan data submitted into the FAA database for each flight, compares that against the information in the weather server that is maintained by NOAA, and then applies several different logic algorythms that basically predicts where each airplane will be for given points during it's flight and when it will arrive at the destination airport. It then takes data imputted by the master ATC server that contains information about what runways are in use at airports around the US, how many planes can be handled per hour in the current configuration, and any items that might affect the facility's ability to handle the maximum number of operations per hour. If the number of arrvials that the flow control server predicts will exceed the number of operations that an airport is able to handle, it will send an alert to several levels of the ATC supervision levels (i.e. to the supervisors at the National Air Route Control Center, ARTCC, Approach Facility, and Tower) advising them of this overrun. The computer will then give several suggestions for resolving the overflow and a decision will be made and flow control implimented and notices sent out to those affected via either electronic (ACARS, fax, e-mail, etc) or verbal (telephone, radio, etc) means.

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  • Crunk415balla
    replied
    This is a very common practice at SFO. Aircraft will usually use a taxiway that is off to the side as to not interupt other opperations. ORD flights seem to be most frequently using the areas here at SFO, likely because of thunderstorms. It is very common in the warmer months to see several United and America aircraft scattered around the active runways on inactive taxiways. And as Joe said, the ATC will usually alert the aircraft by saying something like "We can have you out of here in 5 minutes or so." Then, if they are scattered around on different taxiways, they usually alert the tower that they're ready to go and he will line them up in a sequence so that when they can be released, it is as smooth and efficiant as possible.

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  • screaming_emu
    replied
    Originally posted by JordanD
    Dang that was fast. I've seen 742's do that waiting for storms to clear. I don't even wanna think about how much fuel they wasted just sitting there (must've been at least 30 minutes).
    Actually, if ATC knows that it will be a while until they receive a clearance, they'll probably let them know. Usually if it takes a wile the crew will go ahead and shut down the engines to save gas. Not always though. ATC will give them about a 5 min heads up so they can get everything turned on and ready to go so they don't miss their window.

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  • JordanD
    replied
    Dang that was fast. I've seen 742's do that waiting for storms to clear. I don't even wanna think about how much fuel they wasted just sitting there (must've been at least 30 minutes).

    Leave a comment:


  • screaming_emu
    replied
    When an aircraft is delayed by ATC for a somewhat reasonable amount of time, it doesn't make sense to taxi all the way back to the gate. Also, ATC needs that plane to be ready to go as soon as the Expect Further Clearance Time arrives, so it makes more sense to put them into the "penalty box" right near the runway.

    Leave a comment:


  • JordanD
    started a topic "Penalty Box"

    "Penalty Box"

    I've heard about it and seen it in photo remarks here, but what is it exactly?
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