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  • #31
    You just expressed all my feelings on this subject, well done.
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    • #32
      Thanks, I'm just glad it made some sort of sense.
      If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Crunk415balla
        You just expressed all my feelings on this subject, well done.

        ditto. The physical manipulation of the controls and running of the systems is the easy part of flying.

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        • #34
          Screaming, your comment about 200hrs not being enough for the average person to fly people around in an airline is an interesting one... as for many many years the airlines have been using Cadet programs, with guys having about 200hrs, to crew their aeroplanes. I think that we can dispel the fact that Cadets can't fly!

          I agree with RJuncker... especially the parts about getting in a 737 and doing sectors! The things that you say are going to be missing, like lack of passenger/Ground staff knowledge... well thats true of anyone that has a Cadet background, and many GA pilots too... they aren't exposed to that until airline flying anyway. And ATC? There are many domestic pilots who couldn't fly internationally as they wouldn't have a clue about how to handle the radio.

          As you point out, it is all experience... but the MPL is all purely about doing those 200hrs in a SIM as opposed to 200 hrs in a 172... and I think that the MPL actually ticks most of the boxes better than the Lightie does.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by MCM
            Screaming, your comment about 200hrs not being enough for the average person to fly people around in an airline is an interesting one... as for many many years the airlines have been using Cadet programs, with guys having about 200hrs, to crew their aeroplanes. I think that we can dispel the fact that Cadets can't fly!

            I agree with RJuncker... especially the parts about getting in a 737 and doing sectors! The things that you say are going to be missing, like lack of passenger/Ground staff knowledge... well thats true of anyone that has a Cadet background, and many GA pilots too... they aren't exposed to that until airline flying anyway. And ATC? There are many domestic pilots who couldn't fly internationally as they wouldn't have a clue about how to handle the radio.

            As you point out, it is all experience... but the MPL is all purely about doing those 200hrs in a SIM as opposed to 200 hrs in a 172... and I think that the MPL actually ticks most of the boxes better than the Lightie does.
            Actually, let me clarify my opinion.

            It is possible to be an effective crew member at 200hrs, but it takes the right kind of person to be able to do so. The reason many cadet programs work, is because they screen the hell out of the applicants. Those who aren't likely to succeed dont end up in the program.

            That is why foreign airlines and the military are able to do this. However, in the US all these flight schools with glossy ads in "flying" magazine are willing to push anybody through their program, even if they are fairly incompetent. As long as you have money, the school is willing to push you through, which is not the way to go.

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            • #36
              Well, thats true with most of them. But I should point out that the $94,000 CAPT program screens you up and down to make sure you're not wasting your money and their time before you commit.
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              • #37
                Originally posted by Crunk415balla
                Well, thats true with most of them. But I should point out that the $94,000 CAPT program screens you up and down to make sure you're not wasting your money and their time before you commit.
                That may be the case in the US (I don't know how it works here), but that doesn't mean it applies everywhere, and since the new programme on trial is not limited to the US, the arguments still hold up, as far as I'm concerned.
                If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Rjuncker
                  That may be the case in the US (I don't know how it works here), but that doesn't mean it applies everywhere, and since the new programme on trial is not limited to the US, the arguments still hold up, as far as I'm concerned.
                  Oh, I completely agree with the argument you made, just stating a fact to the credit of these US schools.
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                  • #39
                    Here's for your reading pleasure.

                    New pilot training plan sparks worries

                    By SLOBODAN LEKIC
                    ASSOCIATED PRESS WRITER

                    BRUSSELS, Belgium -- The international airline industry, faced with a growing passenger load and a shortage of pilots, is ready to graduate its first flight crews from a shortened training program that experts warn may not be good enough.

                    The new curriculum - known as the Multi-crew Pilots License - departs from conventional methods by slashing schooling time both on the ground and in the air and by making greater use of flight simulators.

                    The industry says the program will improve the ability of new co-pilots to function as flight crew members, but critics argue it's a quick-fix scheme to overcome pilot shortages that could compromise safety standards.

                    The program was conceived in 2000 by the Montreal-based International Civil Aviation Organization, the U.N. agency in charge of civil air traffic. It designed the program to rely more on simulators and to train students from the start to function as crew members on the specific types of aircraft they will operate during their careers.

                    Supporters say the new program - known as MPL - is a significant improvement, since trainees are placed immediately into the multi-crew environment working closely with other pilots, rather than spending long periods flying solo as is required by the present schooling system.

                    "The whole idea of MPL is to have a modern training concept tailored to meet today's requirements, because the role of pilot has changed from a stick-and-rudder-pusher to a manager of highly technologically advanced systems," said Capt. Chris Schroeder of the International Air Transport Association, a grouping of the world's airlines.

                    "We had to move away from the old training scheme where the emphasis as on flying skills without any system management whatsoever. Instead, we now have fully integrated competency-based training for cockpit managers in aircraft such as the Boeing 787 Dreamliner."

                    But critics say they are skeptical about the need for such sweeping changes in training programs, claiming these are principally motivated by economic considerations and by the airlines' desperation for pilots.

                    "Simulators are good to teach system operations, but real flying is needed to learn airmanship, the very basis of safety," said Philip von Schoppenthau, secretary-general of the Brussels-based European Cockpit Association, a pilots' union.

                    "We're not fundamentally against the MPL idea, but let's not reduce flying hours drastically so that the knowledge base of airline pilots can be maintained," he said.

                    Over the past several years the growth of air traffic in the Middle East and Asia and the proliferation of budget airlines in Europe and the United States have created a drastic shortage of airline pilots. With global air traffic predicted to grow by 5-6 percent annually over the next two decades, the shortage will only become more acute.

                    Carriers around the world will require 17,000 new pilots a year until 2024 just to keep up with new aircraft deliveries, according to estimates by Boeing's Alteon training subsidiary. By comparison, Germany's Lufthansa - one of the world's largest airlines - employs only 4,000 pilots.

                    The primary demand for pilots will come from China, India, Southeast Asia
                    and the Persian Gulf region.

                    The new program will begin graduating pilots this year from schools in Australia, the Philippines and Denmark. The first six cadets who will finish
                    are being trained in Australia by Alteon and are from China Eastern Airlines and Xiamen Airlines, also a China-based carrier.

                    So far, the U.S. Federal Aviation Authority and most European regulatory agencies have not given the go-ahead for using MPL. But pressure has been building to inaugurate its wider use, and the program will likely soon be accepted by established air training academies.

                    The training initiative offers airline companies significant economic advantage over the standard program created in the mid-1950s, which normally lasts 18-24 months. The MPL would allow a trainee to qualify as a co-pilot in 45 weeks.

                    Currently, trainee pilots must complete 50-60 flying hours to obtain a Private Pilot's License, then about 150 hours for a Commercial Pilot's License, the basic commercial permit. The Air Transport Pilot's License - the advanced credential required to fly a commercial airliner - obliges pilots to log about 1,500 flying hours. The entire process takes roughly two years.

                    But the MPL would only require about 64 hours of actual flight time as pilot-in-command, because the emphasis would be on simulator training. The International Civil Aviation Organization argues the new curriculum would save on the time a trainee is required to "punch holes in the sky" flying solo in a piston-engine trainer.

                    "Through wide use of flight simulation, the MPL program introduces the multi-crew environment almost from the start," said Henry Desalque, a technical officer for the aviation organization. "It is specifically geared to meet future airline needs."

                    Nonetheless, critics note that 45 weeks is about the time needed to obtain an ordinary driver's license in Europe. They say the trainees will not have enough time to learn basic English - the language of international aviation.

                    Pilots' unions, including the influential International Federation of Airline Pilots Associations, have expressed concern about any training scheme where candidates don't accrue sufficient solo flying time. Even some who favor the new program have warned it must be carefully studied.

                    "By itself the MPL is neither good nor bad," said Jean Benoit Toulouse, an Air France pilot engaged in creating a French MPL program.

                    "We obviously had to modernize training because simulation devices are now so sophisticated that they can be used in most of it," he said. "But the MPL can also end up as a dangerous thing - like giving a license to a co-pilot
                    who is not up to scratch - unless national regulatory agencies maintain strict oversight of the program."



                    The industry says the program will improve the ability of new co-pilots to function as flight crew members, but critics argue it's a quick-fix scheme to overcome pilot shortages that could compromise safety.
                    If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!

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                    • #40
                      A very good article, but a couple of inaccuracies:

                      1) ATPL isn't needed to be SIC on an airliner. A MEL is. (Obviously the majors want an ATP for SIC).

                      2). There is no set time to get through CPL. It can range from six months (at Part 141 schools) to several years.

                      That definately clears it up though. THanks for posting.

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                      • #41
                        The set time for a CPL might refer to the time you have to be eligible to apply for one. I think in the U.S. it's 250 hours, but I'm not 100% sure so don't hold me to that.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by JordanD
                          The set time for a CPL might refer to the time you have to be eligible to apply for one. I think in the U.S. it's 250 hours, but I'm not 100% sure so don't hold me to that.
                          SO i realize. The article was talking about it taking 2 years, etc which varies case to case.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by JordanD
                            The set time for a CPL might refer to the time you have to be eligible to apply for one. I think in the U.S. it's 250 hours, but I'm not 100% sure so don't hold me to that.
                            Yeah 250 hours, but then again thats the REQUIREMENT. A PPL REQUIRES only around 40 hours or so, but how many people actually obtain one in that time? It varies from pilot to pilot, I hate these programs that boast how fast you can get your wings.

                            Anyway, I feel sorry for this first batch of MPL guys. The eyes of the aviation world are on them, and if any of them forget to tie their shoes one day, everyone will say "See, its because of the MPL program!".
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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Crunk415balla
                              The eyes of the aviation world are on them, and if any of them forget to tie their shoes one day, everyone will say "See, its because of the MPL program!".
                              How right you are. I for one don't envy those guys. They must be feeling the pressure.
                              If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!

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