Multi-Crew License

[Airbus_A320]

Airbus A320,

I hear what you are saying, and I really did enjoy my PPL light aircraft training.

The catch is that at the end of the training the pilots in general aren't going to be flying ERJs to Bumblewhatever, they will be right seat 737, A330, 777 pilots for major airlines like China Eastern, and I'm sure that Vietnam Airlines and any other airline with cadet programs will get on board. I believe Lufthansa are already doing it, but Iäm not 100% on that one.

There isn't the hour building in Cessnas... this is straight from initial training to right seat jet for major airline.

It will be interesting to see what comes of it!

Well, at least that would be better than RJ's....
Howbout as far as ratings for stuff like muli-engine, turbojet, insturment, etc.... would those just be assumed since he has the MPL and can fly a large jet?

[Crunk415balla]

This sounds very interesting, I'm really looking forward to seeing how this turns out.

[screaming_emu]

eph that, learn to fly for real.

[ASpilot2be]

eph that, learn to fly for real.

Fo' Sho',I dont even like the idea of the Gulfstream Academy guys flying commercially with so few hours.

[Bok269]

Fo' Sho',I dont even like the idea of the Gulfstream Academy guys flying commercially with so few hours.

WE are going to see more and more of that as the regionals get desperate. What i dislike about Gulfstream is that they expect you to pay 30K for your job. No thanks.

[ASpilot2be]

WE are going to see more and more of that as the regionals get desperate. What i dislike about Gulfstream is that they expect you to pay 30K for your job. No thanks.

Exactly. Most major academies are the same way. It is sad.

[Bok269]

That's why you can't beat your good old FBO!

[MCM]

You can do all type ratings, instrument rating renewals etc in Cat D sims. Its no different to when you join a major airline and they give you the type rating.

There is only a small difference between this and a cadet program like BA used to have which had the pilots going straight to right seat 737 with minimum hours in a light aircraft... this is just saying

"we dont think that doing 200 hours in a C172 is particulally relevant to airline operations, and that time would be better spent doing airline type training"

I guess time will tell if they are right. I pass no judgement.

[screaming_emu]

WE are going to see more and more of that as the regionals get desperate. What i dislike about Gulfstream is that they expect you to pay 30K for your job. No thanks.

Same with Jet University. And Jet U and the school I instruct for are supposedly merging soon. Time to move on to the regionals I guess because I dont want that stuff anywhere near my resume.

[screaming_emu]

"we dont think that doing 200 hours in a C172 is particulally relevant to airline operations, and that time would be better spent doing airline type training"

I dissagree. With all the time I've spent instructing I've become a much better stick and rudder pilot, as well as with the experiences I've had my judgement has gotten much much better. There's a difference between having an engine begin to sputter in real live vs. having it happen in the sim where you know that if you crash you can still head out to the bar afterwards.

[JordanD]

Personally I think they should have to pay their "dues" like everyone else. Like Joe said, a simulator can teach you procedures, but it can't teach you good judgement.

[Bok269]

Same with Jet University. And Jet U and the school I instruct for are supposedly merging soon. Time to move on to the regionals I guess because I dont want that stuff anywhere near my resume.

Is that Jet U's deal, taking over smaller FBO's and flight schools?

[MCM]

Screaming,

I'm not saying they are right in their thinking, I'm just showing their line of thinking. I think there is much merit in what you say. However, Cadets have been doing training that is as short as 200hours. The advanced decision making and stick and rudder skills I'm sure you aquired after you were instructing, with more than 200hrs. Do you learn enough things between the 100 and 200 hour mark that can't be learnt in a career-relevant simulator situation?

However, as much as you say that things like experience when an engine splutters, or those stick and rudder skills, when you do start flying for an airline, and get a heavy jet endorsement, you will find out that those skills really aren't the hard to train parts. Still and Rudder skills come with time on any aircraft, and your single pilot decision making is very very different to the thinking required by airlines. Crew operations takes a while to get used to, and is one of the big sticking points these days. I think they really do have a point that some of the training, if you are going to spend your entire career in an airline, just isn't relevant.

Your argument is very valid, and certainly promotes the idea of GA pilots... but it isn't GA pilots we are really talking about, its cadet pilots, who will have 200hrs Total Time when they sit in the right seat. Is that 200 hours better spent in a simulator environment representing their new workplace, or in a GA aircraft they will probably never fly again?

JordanD, i'm not sure that sweeping statements like make them 'pay their dues' is going to help anyone in this situation, and if pilots continue to live in the past and think that is acceptable in this day and age of cost minimisation, and looking for training efficiency, we will go backwards very fast as a profession.

I am not saying that the GA training field isn't a valid one... it most certainly is and GA pilots learn a lot of different skills that help them throughout their careers... but the best outcome we can have is to have pilots of all different backgrounds... GA, Military, and Cadet, as they all have skills that add to the entire operation.

Can the Cadet side of it be changed to more Sim and less Aircraft flying?
Possibly.

[screaming_emu]

I get what you're saying as well, GA flying is extremely different than airline flying. I was able to get a small taste of what it is like with 20 hours in a CRJ FTD. I just really think that 200 hours for the average person is not quite enough exposure to the skills needed to fly hundreds of people around safely.

[Rjuncker]

Just wanted to give my 2 cents. In terms of "paying their dues", cadets can join in the left hand seat straight after 20 hours. Of course, we all know that's not possible. I'm just saying I don't think people should have to pay their dues. I joined an airline with only 200 hours (PA28, Beech 36 and piper Seneca). That secured me a right hand seat in a B737-6/-7/-800. Of course, I had to do a seperate LOFT course, a procedure training course and then a type rating in the SIM. That meant 24 hours in the DC-8 sim, about 80 hours in the MD-80 sim, and I can't remember how many hours in the 737NG sim.

Personally, I feel that SIM's have come to a standard where it's absolutely plausible to let people do their training in the sim and then fly jet for real afterwards. The problem with that, is not whether they can operate the aircraft safely. In my point of view, the problem would be that they haven't been exposed to all the environmental aspects of flying, such as ATC, ground crew, cabin crew, grumpy passengers, etc. That means that effectively, the captain gets an ace assistent in terms of procedures, but in other aspects he's on his own. Furthermore, I agree that, it's easy to lose sight of the real dangerous aspects of flying, when you "grow up" in a simulator, and one could fear that new pilots would not have the same amount of repsect for the machinery they handle.

There's no denying that a lot of the shortage of pilots in future is due to arise in Asia and India. The industry sees increasingly bigger planes and pilots with less and less experience. While it's impossible to legislate against these things, there should be a way to make sure that no cadet joins the right hand seat of a heavy/long haul aircraft with two hundred hours. So, what's the difference between flying a jumbo and a 737? SECTORS! That's what. I have flown both and thank god I started with the 737. I have done over 1000 operating sectors in the 737, with a lot of visual approaches (I'm not talking about hand flying from 500') and real aircraft handling. In my present company, cadet pilots typically take close to 10 years to get 1000 sectors. So, the handling experience I got in 3 years, they get in 10 years. And by that time they're about to become captains. See where I'm going?

I don't know if this made any sense, but to sum up: I think it's plausible for people to get an airline job with the majority of the training done in a Full Flight SIM, but make sure that they have a clear understanding of the potential dangers, the environment around them and make sure they start on Class C aircraft for lots of handling and visual flying.