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  • #31
    Ok people, this war is not about oil . Duh, the war is for two reasons.

    - To free the Iraqi people from Saddam's horrific regime and restore peace and justice in Iraq, and introduce a democratic government to Iraq so it will become a model for the rest of the Middle East.

    - To route out terrorists, weapons of mass destruction, and to remove Saddam from power.

    Hello, the "No blood for oil" argument is so trite!

    Read this

    FROM THE WASHINGTON POST www.washingtonpost.com
    By Thomas W. Lippman
    Friday, January 24, 2003; Page A27


    The failure of the Bush administration to articulate a compelling rationale for a potential war with Iraq is having a pernicious global side effect: It is fostering the belief that such a conflict would be a "war for oil" and therefore an exercise in imperialism, not an exercise in security.

    This view is widely held in the Arab world, where commentators argue that the United States must be expecting instability in Saudi Arabia to compound the instability in Venezuela, and is therefore looking elsewhere for ensured oil supplies. It showed up in the signs and shouts of the antiwar demonstrators who came to Washington last weekend: "No blood for oil!" "We don't want your oil war."

    The oil-industry connections of President Bush and Vice President Cheney reinforce the presumed oil rationale. Some proponents of the oil theory also cite the "Carter doctrine," in which President Jimmy Carter proclaimed that the United States would protect its access to Persian Gulf oil by "any means necessary, including military force." The Carter doctrine, however, was inspired by the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and was directed against "outside" forces, namely Moscow; it was not about the governance of the Persian Gulf countries themselves.

    Even a perfunctory acquaintance with the realities of the global oil market would indicate that the "oil war" theory does not stand up to analysis. As an imagined rationale it doesn't square with the facts; and in the unlikely event that it actually does factor into the administration's thinking, it is a specious argument that cannot justify sending American forces into combat.

    First, if the United States felt compelled to increase its access to oil from Iraq, it could do so by getting the U.N. Security Council to lift the economic sanctions that restrict Iraqi output -- no bloodshed necessary. Iraq's oil would flow freely into the global market, contracts already signed with Russian and European companies would increase Iraqi production and, as a beneficial side effect, prices would decline as supplies increased.

    Then assume the worst in Saudi Arabia: Militant anti-American extremists seize control of the government. Such rulers might refuse to sell oil directly to the American customers, but it's highly unlikely they would refuse to sell oil to anyone, because the country's other sources of income are negligible. Because the worldwide oil flow -- about 67 million barrels a day -- is fungible in a global market, the effect of such a move by Saudi Arabia against the United States would be minimal. To the extent that the Saudis shifted oil sales to customers in Europe or Asia, those customers would stop buying oil from wherever they get it now, and the United States could shift its Saudi purchases to those other suppliers.

    It might be necessary to modify refinery runs to account for variations in oil quality, and shipping costs might increase with distance, but the overall impact would be tolerable.

    Moreover, the record shows that even countries whose rulers are hostile to us are willing to sell us oil because they need the money. Saddam Hussein's Iraq itself sells oil to American consumers under the "oil for food" program. If the United States buys no oil from Iran or from Moammar Gaddafi's Libya, it is because we cut them off -- not because they cut us off. Libya would welcome the return of a petroleum relationship with the United States.

    Finally, an American takeover of Iraq would not, in the long run, give the United States guaranteed access to Iraqi oil. A democratic Iraq might well decide that its future prosperity would be best served by a supply relationship with, say, China, now an importer of oil with rapidly growing demand. The days when industrialized countries acquired ownership of oil in producing countries are decades in the past. Conversely, a fragmented Iraq, breaking up along ethnic lines, might produce less oil than currently, rather than more.

    As the U.S. military buildup around Iraq's perimeter accelerates, the Bush administration is obliged to make a persuasive case for war. It should also make clear what its motives are not.

    Thomas W. Lippman, an adjunct scholar at the Middle East Institute, is writing a book on U.S.-Saudi Arabian relations.



    © 2003 The Washington Post Company
    Did ya read it??? Hope ya did!!! I know its the painful truth. Hey while I'm at it check out the links below for some High Priests of The Painful Truth!!

    CheckSix
    CheckSix

    Equipment: A camera (who gives a rip about the brand?)

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    • #32
      I agree, Iraq's oil isn't the driving force behind this war. I think that aside from the rhetoric. There is a secret agenda behind all of this. Having a close ally situated right in the middle of a turbulent region would do nicely for the US. Such would help America project it's influence over the region and possibly of strategic importance in the war on terrorism.

      In my opinion it's all strategic. Iraq may become America's bastion of stability in the Middle East just as Iran was in the 70s. In the case of the latter, it was to prevent the spread of communism in the Middle East. This time with the former, it will be to help in influencing the Middle East and to help fight terrorism.

      Comment


      • #33
        This war IS about oil, and only oil. Or why do you think that the US do not want any other parties, namely Britain or the UN, to be involved in reigning past-war Iraq?

        The UN can have what's left of Iraq, but only after Iraq's oil has been secured by the USA.

        @Herpa 2003: I did not support war on Afghanistan, I never support any kind of war. War is always the very last thing when diplomacy has failed, and a lot of diplomacy has failed lately.

        I can live with the fact that the USA want to get Osama bin Laden, as he and his network seem to be responsible for 9/11. But I can not support the fact that a whole country is attacked for getting one man, who, after all, is still enjoying his freedom.

        I can live with the fact that the USA want to get their hands on the Iraqi oil, but again I can not support that just for this a war is started against innocent people. I can live with the fact that the USA think Saddam Hussain is a danger for them, and want to get him, but again it can not be that a whole country is put to war for getting one man, who, after all, still enjoys freedom, and will continue to do so for a long time. My best guess is that he has long ago left Baghdad and is hiding someplace else, perhaps outside Iraq.

        Wake up, guys, and stop believing that this war was started to free the Iraqi people. They were left behind unprotected 12 years ago, and the same will happen again after the USA have got what the want: OIL and/or Saddam.

        Regards,
        Peter

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by aerpix
          This war IS about oil, and only oil. Or why do you think that the US do not want any other parties, namely Britain or the UN, to be involved in reigning past-war Iraq?

          The UN can have what's left of Iraq, but only after Iraq's oil has been secured by the USA.

          @Herpa 2003: I did not support war on Afghanistan, I never support any kind of war. War is always the very last thing when diplomacy has failed, and a lot of diplomacy has failed lately.

          I can live with the fact that the USA want to get Osama bin Laden, as he and his network seem to be responsible for 9/11. But I can not support the fact that a whole country is attacked for getting one man, who, after all, is still enjoying his freedom.

          I can live with the fact that the USA want to get their hands on the Iraqi oil, but again I can not support that just for this a war is started against innocent people. I can live with the fact that the USA think Saddam Hussain is a danger for them, and want to get him, but again it can not be that a whole country is put to war for getting one man, who, after all, still enjoys freedom, and will continue to do so for a long time. My best guess is that he has long ago left Baghdad and is hiding someplace else, perhaps outside Iraq.

          Wake up, guys, and stop believing that this war was started to free the Iraqi people. They were left behind unprotected 12 years ago, and the same will happen again after the USA have got what the want: OIL and/or Saddam.

          Regards,
          Peter
          Honestly, when will you ever learn?
          CheckSix

          Equipment: A camera (who gives a rip about the brand?)

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          • #35
            Why is a war purely against Saddams regime and has been since it started being labeled a war against innocent people.
            Answer that please Aerpix.
            Try to catch me flyin dirty...

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            • #36
              Originally posted by mikecweb
              Why is a war purely against Saddams regime and has been since it started being labeled a war against innocent people.
              Answer that please Aerpix.
              That's what I want to know. It has baffled me why these Anti-American/Anti-Bush protestors think that this is a war on the people when it is a war on the government. Apparently these people have never heard of the horrible things that Saddam has done. For example, Saddam had people thrown into a plastic shreader FEET first so they could die in pain. That is what SADDAM does (or did if that airstrike was successful). Why do these people think it is a war on the people when the Coaltion forces have bent over backwards to prevent the deaths of innocent people. It is amazing because the truth is plain and simple. It is right infront of him. Of course Peter being in Switzerland, heavens knows what they say about the war over there. You international people that are against Bush, against the war, against the United States, have NO idea whatsoever how our United States works. I am sorry but it is the truth. Peter have you ever picked up a copy of our Constitution? Read it.[/b]
              CheckSix

              Equipment: A camera (who gives a rip about the brand?)

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              • #37
                aerpix- so you do not support any war?

                Scenario 1- (This may sound dumb, but I just want to know what you think)Switzerland is overrun and taken over by evil dictators. Their plan is to exterminate all Swiss people. 100,000 Swiss civilians have been killed so far. Should the rest of the world just let this happen? Or is war imminent?
                Fly Raleigh-Durham International, with direct flights on Air Canada, AirTran, American Airlines, American Eagle, America West, Continental Airlines, Continental Express, Delta Airlines, Delta Connection, jetBlue, Northwest Airlines, Southwest Airlines, United Express and US Airways to:

                ATL, AUS, BWI, BOS, CHS, CLT, MDW, ORD, CVG, CLE, DFW, DTW, FLL, BDL, HOU, IND, LAS, LAX, LGW, MEM, MIA, MSP, BNA, EWR, MSY, JFK, LGA, ORF, MCO, PHL, PHX, PIT, STL, SLC, TPA, YYZ, DCA and IAD.

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                • #38
                  Also- the only reason France/Russia opposed us is because of their economic interests in Iraq. France has huge OIL contracts with Iraq and Russia sells arms to Iraq.
                  Second- it would be much, much cheaper to buy oil than to start a war to get oil.
                  Fly Raleigh-Durham International, with direct flights on Air Canada, AirTran, American Airlines, American Eagle, America West, Continental Airlines, Continental Express, Delta Airlines, Delta Connection, jetBlue, Northwest Airlines, Southwest Airlines, United Express and US Airways to:

                  ATL, AUS, BWI, BOS, CHS, CLT, MDW, ORD, CVG, CLE, DFW, DTW, FLL, BDL, HOU, IND, LAS, LAX, LGW, MEM, MIA, MSP, BNA, EWR, MSY, JFK, LGA, ORF, MCO, PHL, PHX, PIT, STL, SLC, TPA, YYZ, DCA and IAD.

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                  • #39
                    RE

                    Aerpix, and all who oppose the war have said you first need proof that Iraq has chemical weapons. No weapons, no war. The news these past days show we might have stumbled on plenty of weapons at a military training camp in Central Iraq. Among the stuff U.S. forces uncovered were the nerve agents saran and tabun and the blister agent lewisite. It’s still too early to make a big deal out of this, but think about this. We now know of Al Qaeda training camps working with Iraqi soldiers on the finer points of guerilla tactics against American forces. We know as well about thousands of gas suits uncovered little more than a week ago in Southern Iraq. We know of empty canisters thought to have been destroyed years ago, suddenly popping up in Iraq today. All of this could be circumstantial, but I have a feeling even if confirmed, the anti-war people won't budge. Like the opposing countries of this war they'll argue for still more proof, more photographs, more chemical sightings. Look, you don't want war, that's fair. But quit hiding behind reasons why you don't want war. Because while you're marching, we're uncovering. Unraveling the very reasons why you say we shouldn't be in Iraq and finding a ton of really bad stuff in Iraq. Al Qaeda where you said it shouldn't be. Dangerous chemical stuff where you said it wouldn't be. You're either naive, or stupid, or both. What will it take for you to put the burning flag down and your head up? I suspect quite a bit, since first you have to get your head out of another place that appears very dark right now; too dark to see anything at all.
                    Cory Klimko
                    Click Here to view my aircraft photos at JetPhotos.Net!

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                    • #40
                      By the way Peter, I did take the liberty of reading the Swiss Constitution. So you don't have to ask.
                      CheckSix

                      Equipment: A camera (who gives a rip about the brand?)

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                      • #41
                        You want answers? I try to sum it up as I have already given extensive answers in other places on this board. I am simply tired of speaking against walls.

                        For those of you who have read our Constitution (and I doubt that this were many), you know that we are a neutral country, and have been so since the 15th century. There is no reason for any dictator to invade, and we give no reasons whatsoever, but if someone decided to do so, all he would get is a bloody head. We are a well armed defensive army. Even the US army would certainly have its troubles invading Switzerland. 20 parked tanks on our main square in Zurich would be sufficient!

                        I am neither stupid, nor blind, nor naive or anything else of those nice compliments you were putting up at me. I am just realistic, and anti-war. War is never a solution. War only comes in when diplomacy has failed. So instead of going for war, better exchange your unable politicians.

                        The Iraqi people are not responsible for Saddam's regime, nor for his suspected (I still call them suspected, no proof yet) WMDs. Yet the war is carried on their back. That's why they are innocent, and this war is against innocent people. As outlined further above, I have no problem if the US wants to get Saddam. But starting a war at the cost of the people is not the right way. You had probably better teamed-up with Mossad, they would have gone in and captured Saddam before GWB would even have found Baghdad on an Iraqi map. And without starting a war, that is.

                        But above this all there are the unsubstantiated reasons why this war was started at first: homeland security, 9/11 etc. etc. That's all bullshit, gents. This war was started because the USA have a megalomaniac as president, and because the USA have exactly the very same economic interests in the area as have France, Germany or Russia, and some other nations.

                        And, this is already the second war that he has started. And I bet that we are facing more wars to come, at least until someone manages to remove this megalomaniac from office!

                        Regards,
                        Peter

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by aerpix
                          You want answers? I try to sum it up as I have already given extensive answers in other places on this board. I am simply tired of speaking against walls.
                          Currently all you have been giving us opinions. Not the facts. Give us the facts.

                          Even the US army would certainly have its troubles invading Switzerland. 20 parked tanks on our main square in Zurich would be sufficient!
                          Hmm... Against M1 Abrams? Right...Do you homework Peter.
                          Country Of Origin: Switzerland
                          Designation: Main Battle Tank
                          Manufacturer: Federal Construction

                          Works, Thun, Switzerland

                          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          Crew: 4
                          Armament: 1 x 105 mm,
                          1 x 7.5 mm MG (coaxial),
                          1 x 7.5 mm MG (anti-aircraft),
                          2 x 3 smoke grenade dischargers
                          Ammunition: 56 x 105 mm,
                          5,200 x 7.5 mm
                          Length Gun Forwards: 9.49 m
                          Length Hull: 6.88 m
                          Width: 3.14 m
                          Height: 2.88 m (With AA MG)
                          Power To Weight Ratio: 16.62 hp / tonne
                          Ground Clearance: 0.41 m
                          Weight (Combat): 39,700 kg
                          Weight (Empty): 38,700 kg
                          Engine: MTU MB 837 8-cylinder diesel
                          developing 660 hp at 2,200 rpm
                          Maximum Road Speed: 55 km / hr
                          Maximum Road Range: 350 km
                          Fuel Capacity: 710 lit
                          Fording: 1.1 m
                          Vertical Obstacle 0.75 m
                          Trench: 2.6 m
                          Gradient 60 %
                          Side Slope: 30 %
                          Armour: 120 mm (maximum)
                          Armour Type: Steel
                          NBC System: Yes
                          Night Vision: None
                          By the way, that is the Swiss Army's latest battle tank.

                          Manufacturer General Dynamics (Land Systems Division)
                          Crew 4: Commander, Gunner, Loader & Driver

                          Weight 60 Tons 63 Tons 69.54 Tons
                          Length (Gun Forward) 384.5 inches 387 inches
                          Turret Height 93.5 inches
                          Width 143.8 inches 144 inches
                          Ground Clearance 19 inches
                          Ground Pressure 13.1 PSI 13.8 PSI 15.4 PSI
                          Obstacle Crossing 49 inches 42 inches
                          Vertical Trench 9 Feet
                          Power plant AGT-1500 turbine engine
                          Power Rating 1500 HP
                          Power to Weight Ratio 25 hp/ton 23.8 hp/ton 21.6 hp/ton
                          Hydro Kinetic Transmission 4 Speed Forward
                          2 Speed Reverse

                          Speed - Maximum 45 mph (Governed) 42 mph (Governed)
                          Speed - Cross Country 30 mph
                          Speed - 10% Slope 20 mph 17 mph
                          Speed - 60% Slope 4.5 mph 4.1 mph
                          Acceleration
                          (0 to 20 mph) 7 Seconds 7.2 Seconds
                          Cruising Range 275 Miles 265 Miles

                          Main Armament 105mm M68A1
                          Rifled Cannon 120mm M256
                          Smooth Bore Cannon
                          Commander's Weapon .50 Cal M2 Machinegun
                          Coaxial Weapon 7.62 M240 Machinegun
                          Loader's Weapon 7.62 M240 Machinegun on Skate Mount

                          NBC System 200 SCFM - CleanCooled Air
                          403 USMC
                          20, against 403. Hmmm, not to mention, Apaches, SOCOM, Kiowas, ahhh, couple of Bradelys, ahh, yes as you can see I keep up on international military information. By, the way, the United States doesn't even need to attack Switzerland. Your country's president/prime minister/premier (sorry, that's something I don't know) has done nothing to the Swiss people. Saddam has.


                          War is never a solution. War only comes in when diplomacy has failed. So instead of going for war, better exchange your unable politicians.
                          Diplomacy failed. We have given diplomacy for the past 12 years. We have given Saddam and his ruthless dicatorship 12 years to get out. We have given him 12 years to disarm. Diplomacy failed. That is why we are liberating Iraq and removing Saddam and his WMDs from Iraq.



                          And, this is already the second war that he has started. And I bet that we are facing more wars to come, at least until someone manages to remove this megalomaniac from office!
                          In all reality (I know you don't like that word), 77% of our nation supports Bush and his administration. So I don't think that he will be out of here (Thank Goodness) until 2008. Bummer ain't it.

                          Cheerio, Have a nice day. Sorry to bore anyone...
                          CheckSix

                          Equipment: A camera (who gives a rip about the brand?)

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                          • #43
                            20 parked tanks on our main square in Zurich would be sufficient!
                            Sorry to confuse, this should have read 20 tanks would NOT be sufficient, and I meant US tanks in reference to the 20 tanks parking at one of Baghdad's main squares. Hope that clears it up.

                            I am not impressed by the huge figures of weaponry your country has available. We have far less, but yet your huge arsenal will be rather useless in this country. We would be a real pain in your ass if you made the mistake to invade. But as you correctly say, there is no reason for anyone to invade here.

                            Fact is that we have a couple more than 20 tanks, though they are not as modern and capable as the M-1. But then again we do not normally need them, we do better things with our tax money than buying weaponry.

                            Yes, 77% support your president, 77% that think they are the greatest in the world. Until they learn of the massive costs of those wars, and about the cuts in their social wellfare to pay for the wars. Until they are hit again by Arab terrorists, until their economy goes down the dole once more, etc. etc.

                            Sad to hear that only 23% of all American are reasonable and responsible. And that is a FACT, no opinion!

                            Regards,
                            Peter

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