Etops

[ACman]

Whats does it mean when a plane has 180 (777 w/ PW4099 engines) ETOPS time? What does ETOPS time and ETOPS mean exactly? Puzzled me and this is embarrasing asking this question. A ver no0b question.

Also in this picture by Chris Burns, the quickest in the Wild West...
[photoid=453938]

Has ETOPS written across the main nose gear doors, why is this? For Identification on the Ground?

[chrisburns]

Love the pic that you chose

[Cam]

I think it means you can be 180 mins from an airport or something like that...someone here knows for sure..

[Airbus_A320]

I think it means it's certified to fly for 180 minutes on one engine, if one were to fail.

[ptbodale]

Now I wonder what KLM does if the acft become non-ETOPS because of a maintenance deviation. Things like "engine fire loops" render the acft non-ETOPS.

As well it makes you wonder why the Rampies need to know if it is an ETOPS acft or not.

[babypurin]

I think it means it's certified to fly for 180 minutes on one engine, if one were to fail.

Correct, but remember this only refers to two engined aircraft. The 777-300ER or 777-200LR is trying to get certified for 330 minute ETOPS, so it can fly in the Pacific without any problem; currently it has to take a longer route which adds extra time and fuel.

Continental also has ETOPS on some of their 737NG's because they fly to the Caribbean from Newark, which is pretty much all over water.

[vojoboy]

Whats does it mean when a plane has 180 (777 w/ PW4099 engines) ETOPS time?

It means that the Twin engined aircraft is certified to fly routes which will take the aircraft through areas where it is 3 hours away from a "suitable" diversion airport in case it suffers from a single engine failure.

Note that equipment certification is different from airline operational approval i.e. a 772ER is certified for ETOPS-180 but an operator/airline might not be permitted by the country regulator (e.g. FAA) to operate the aircraft at this ETOPS rating.

What does ETOPS time and ETOPS mean exactly?

This link gives quite a good discussion on ETOPS.

[paulc]

Engines Turn Or Passengers Swim

A etops rated twin has to be able to fly on 1 engine for a specified period of time (usually 3 hours) but I think some are up to 207 mins as a result of using twins from the west coast to Hawaii.

The granting of an ETOPS certificate is also dependant on the airline as you have to build up a certain level of experiance before an ETOPS certificate can be applied for.
Also a new aircraft or engine type would be unlikely to get an ETOPS certificate from day 1 - although United did achieve this with the 777 after an exhaustive series of work up flights.

Other systems are also uprated i.e. cargo hold detection / fire supression system as there is little point in being able to fly for 3 hours on 1 engine if the cargo hold cannot contain a fire for the same length of time.

[Legend_Airlines]

Let's not forget the Wiki!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETOPS

They have a good map too

[DAL767-400ER]

As an interesting side fact, Boeing has been doing some ETOPS 330 test flights with its 773ER prototype. While ETOPS 330 will likely never become a regular like ETOPS 120 or ETOPS 120 or 180, it should help in slowly making ETOPS 240 become a reality.

[ConcordeBoy]

Continental also has ETOPS on some of their 737NG's

correct......

because they fly to the Caribbean from Newark

......incorrect.

None of CO's Caribbean operations requires ETOPS

which is pretty much all over water.

Which, per se, has nothing to do with ETOPS.

ETOPS formally stands for Extended-range Twin-engine Operational Performance Standards. It's now commonly referred to (even in Ops manuals) as Extended Twin OPS.

ETOPS is granted in increments of 90minutes flying time, 120min, or 180min. Hence "ETOPS180" is an airline/aircraft/engine combo that is certified to be 180minutes away from a suitable emergency landing airstrip, at any time. ETOPS specifications go into effect after an aircraft has flown more than 60min flying time (again, at only 50% power) from an alternate field... and that's why CO doesn't need it for Caribbean ops, because they stay within 60min of other 'ports.

The FAA allows a 15% extension for some airlines of proven record, which allows them to operate 138min diversion times over the Atlantic and various areas of the Pacific, as well as 207min (on a case-by-case, route-by-route basis) across the northern Pacific only. The latter is rarely used, but granted as a safety measure for longrange transPac flights whose diversion fields might be temporarily closed due to an arctic storm.

Anywho, both ETOPS approval and certification have nothing to do with water... but alas are the allotted time frame that an aircraft (approval) and its airline (certification), while operating at a maximum 50% thrust, are allowed to be from a suitable diversion field. Granted, that often happens over water, but it's not the only case. Deserts, and airport closures also effect ETOPS-- that's why operations between Europe and South Africa require ETOPS, as several key diversion airports close during the flight time between the two continents, and thus some aircraft are more than 60min away from a suitable strip.

For ETOPS approval, a manufacturer (i.e., Boeing, Airbus, etc) must prove that an airframe (e.g., 777-200ER) and engine (e.g., PW4090) are together capable of:

• sustaining a minimum vSEO as per that aircraft's class stipulation
• sustaining a minimum cabin pressurization equivalent to no more than 10,000ft above sea level (both Boeing and Airbus conform to MUCH more stringent minima however)
• suppressing an onboard fire for a minimum of the ETOPS time period sought (i.e., if a 777 wants to have ETOPS180, then it has to be able to suppress a cargo fire for at least 180 minutes). This is my MAJOR point of contention with flying non-twinjets over long periods. 747s, M11s, D10s, A340s, etc are not required to have onboard fire suppression beyond a hand-held extinguisher in the cockpit and lavatories... and to me, this is absolutely asinine!
• etc

For ETOPS certification, an airline must prove that it is capable of:

• utilising ETOPS-certified mechanics to perform and sustain a maintenance regime in accord with FAA stipulated guidelines (for example: in ETOPS-level maintenance, no one engineer can service more than a single engine on any twinjet aircraft, and his work must be immediately followed by an independent colleague-- this is to insure that any mistake is not made on more than a single engine. It's also a huge contrast to 3 or 4hole aircraft, where the same engineer can by law work multiple engines)
• maintain engine-specific reliability such that no more than two shutdowns occur per 100,000 hours of flight for that engine/airframe combination. This is the reason that both Thai and USAirways temporarily lost their ETOPS allotments on their 773As and A333s respectively....they exceeded the minima and thus were revoked (though TG voluntarily withdrew before its CAA slammed the gavel on them).
• etc.

okay, I'm tired of typing... I'm sure you get the idea.

but I think some are up to 207 mins as a result of using twins from the west coast to Hawaii.

some twins can and do fly west coast - Hawaii with ETOPS138... hardly a need for 207

[ACman]

Thanks everyone, especcially ConcordeBoy

[babypurin]

Concordeboy, if Continental doesn't need their 737NG ETOPS for the Carribbean, where do they use them for?

The only other place I could see them needing it would be Micronesia.

[ConcordeBoy]

...you just answered your own question

[ConcordeBoy]

Also worth noting, which has yet to have been mentioned...

...Boeing has been getting extremely "creative" with helping inexperienced airlines get higher levels of ETOPS certification, faster.


For example-- both Hawaiian and Northwest were airlines with no ETOPS experience at all, yet were able to operate with ETOPS180 from the start (it normally takes 12months of successful 120min operation in order to secure 180min certification).

How did Boeing facilitate this?

...simple, they took an old DC10 simulator; rigged the programming to act just like a twinjet with an engine failure would; then trained the hell out of HA/NW D10 pilots for just about every conceivable situation, on the double-- enough to simulate years worth of experience over a matter of weeks! The FAA/DOT loved it, and the airlines were granted 180min certification without objection.

Good stuff