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Thread: Update on "Manipulation" rejection - Please read

  1. #41
    Banned Sam at MAN's Avatar
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    I have a picture of an F-15 and Spitfire flying together, would that be allowed in B&W?

  2. #42
    JetPhotos.Net Crew LX-A343's Avatar
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    If both aircraft are to be considered as main subject then .... no. Spitfire alone and the F-15 far in distance (see Peter's post) .... yes.

  3. #43
    Senior Member Greg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wwshack
    Now tell me that Mono is dead.

    The flaw?
    I would have loved to have got a slightly blurred figure under the bridge. The image is in two halves, your eye gets led up the road to the lights but there is nothing to bring it to the left.
    Awesome shot, no onbe here is saying that mono is dead. Some of my favorite photos I have taken were in mono, there is nothing quite like nailing the contrast in the darkroom and coming out with something that makes your jaw drop.

    But mono shouldn't be the last ditch to save a crappy color shot and thats what a large portion of the shots uploaded here in b&w were.

  4. #44
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    I completely agree that B&W images, monochrome images can look fantastic and some aviation shots really do lend themselves to this but that should be for a different site where artistic talent is encouraged.

    I`ve got what I think is a good shot of two tornadoes coming through Mach Valley which I converted to B&W and it is one of my faves but it was shot in colour and converted in Photshop = 'cheating.'

    I just think we need to remember this is a site to replicate what we have seen with our own eyes (if any new born babies are reading this then you dont count bcos you see in B&W anyway) and not a site to show who is the best at creating something from nothing via a computer!

    P.S. Wallace, that shot is superb.

  5. #45
    Senior Member egll's Avatar
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    Gerardo said:

    "The subject is the main goal of this site, not the artistic expression, or the transformation to an artistic frame with a new statement."



    The senior crew at JP are well aware of how much I have supported the site over the years and I still support JP 100%, but that statement would not be out be out of place if it had been written by a screener at the blue site-and in my time as a screener I always strived to ensure that we were not the ones suffocating the artistry of photography. Whilst I am in general agreement on the change of the rules I sincerely hope that it is not the start of a slip down the slope to thousands of 'bad motive' rejections.

    Photography is often as much about self-expression as it is about capturing a moment, and as long as this site continues to allow self-expression (up to a point) then I would be happy to support it.


    Matt

  6. #46
    JetPhotos.Net Crew LX-A343's Avatar
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    Sorry Matt, but I think this is a little misunderstanding, ultimately caused by my poor wording (but I hope I have the "non-english native" bonus ). What I meant is, that the photo has to stand out as photo, as originally taken by the photog, not as result of an overly correction/manipulation in a photo editor. The comment regarding "artistic" in my above statement was (wrongly?) only meant as "artistic transformation during post processing"

    I hope, that was a bit clearer.

    Cheerio
    Gerardo

  7. #47

    Default Manipulation

    I still think that jp "management" are taking this Manipulation thing too far.

    Any image has to be manipulated to some degree or other. RAW conversion for instance.
    I've got a +/- 2 f.stop manipulation.
    White balance is a severe form of manipulation in that it affects the conditions that the photo was taken in.
    Finally, there is a slider in Adobe RAW called, saturation, sliding that to the left has interesting results for the colour of an image. (There is no skill involved with that adjustment and totally fair on all members.)

    Thou shalt do RAW conversion but thou shall not footer with the saturation!

    To go on, level adjustment, Colour balance (a manipulation just as serious as the conversion to mono), Curves, playing God with the contrast, and to top it all off sharpening. I wear glasses so if I take mine off then I don't have to sharpen an image because the finished product is as my eyes have seen it.

    I really think that the management is digging a large hole for themselves and as Matt has inferred, taking the Blue Route to image control.
    Let's not have members thinking that we are going down the Blue Route, anyway mono is such a tiny part of the screeners workload in the first place.
    Wallace


  8. #48
    Senior Member Simpleboy's Avatar
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    Is it possible that black and white shots that do not meet the already given criteria (vintage aircraft or taken on B+W slide) to be passed onto an admin for a decision about its acceptance/rejection from the database? This would not completely ban B+W shots of modern subjects but let a senior person at the site view the photo on its subject and final appearance before a decision has been made. I know yous guys can leave photos to the admins to decide, it just seems fairer than it being rejected right away.
    Sam Rudge
    A 5D3, some Canon lenses, the Sigma L and a flash

  9. #49
    JetPhotos.Net Crew LX-A343's Avatar
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    The rule is easy as all other rules. It doesn't need a special procedure. Borderline cases, where a screener doesn't feel comfortable can of course be passed to a senior or admin, just as every other submitted photo. But the rules are fairly clear so far. If a photo doesn't meet the criteria, I don't see a point in accepting it, unless if we wanted to create more problems ... you know ..... "why has this been accepted and mine not?"

  10. #50
    JetPhotos.Net Crew Diezel's Avatar
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    Question

    I hope I may bother Gerardo once again to get a better feel about this rule. I always liked the j.net statement "we are looking for ways to accept a picture rather than to reject a picture".

    A while ago I uploaded this picture from a Spit which I altered in PS to look WWII like by adding film grain and artificially underexposing it. I noted that to the screeners and checked the "artistic" box and it was accepted as such.

    I wonder, would this picture be accepted at this time?

    [photoid=446351]


    Roel.

  11. #51
    Member ollieholmes's Avatar
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    Where do you draw the line at an old aeroplane though? What some people consider old others dont. I consider the Canberra old, but they have only just retired the last 3 from RAF service. Would a Canberra be allowed in Black and white? Or how about the VC10, still in service but shes old.
    Or take the only commercial aeroplane i can realy recognise, the DC3. They where dropping parachutists on d-day but yet they are still flown commercial i believe. Would that be accepted in black and white?

  12. #52
    Member Mark Ralph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LX-A343
    After some recent uploads we saw lately, we decided to extend the use of the "manipulation" rejection.

    In addition to the explanation in the upload guideline, following are the rules regarding "manipulation":
    • Alterning of colors, other than adjusting the histogram and contrast is not accepted. For example: giving the sky a yellow cast to fake a sunset sky.
    • Black and white photos are only allowed on
      • scans of B/W negatives/slides

      • vintage aircraft or "vintage look alikes", i.e. retro painting schemes, replicas, etc.

      • in addition: "artistic" category has to be selected.
    • Any other colour altering, including fake skies, inverting of colours, etc. is not allowed.
    • Any other altering during the editing process will be rejected, this means adding things that were not originally in the picture or removing significant elements of the shot. Recent examples are: addition of glare effects, altering of regs, etc.
    Remember: Anybody found to be uploading fake pictures (or pictures that are not theirs) can expect to be permanently banned from the site.


    Thanks for your understanding. If you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask.

    Regards
    Let's go back to the initial body of this subject and pull out a some key words.

    "Altering of colour" This is not tweaking Saturation, Contrast etc, etc in small increments to improve the photo, this is making a grey sky blue, a dull sunset shot bright orange, I am sure you know what I mean.

    "Vintage Aircraft" not Old, my understanding - would fall into the category of aircraft that were in service in and around the time that Black & White film would have been in use for the majority. Gerardo did however point out "Retro Schemes" would be aloud.

    "Any other altering" - cloning out fence post, lamp posts, baggage trucks. Changing reg no.s and adding lens effect filters. Removal of dust would be the only acceptable cloning action.

    I am sure everybody here knows what amount of image processing is enough to make a image ready for upload without pushing the levels of alteration to the extreme.

    With regard to the references made about the Blue site, the majority of the above has always been in place here except maybe the black & white guidelines.

    Lets not make a mountain out of a mole hill on this subject.

    Regards

    Mark

  13. #53
    Senior Member brianw999's Avatar
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    First of all, this is NOT an attempt to change your minds. You have set the guidelines and that's it...but....retro colour schemes allowed in B&W ?

    I had a long think about that and came to the conclusion that I hope people don't go down that route too often, if at all. As an example I played around with this pic of an SAS Airbus in the colour scheme of older days gone by....




    The colour scheme may be from older days but, frankly, it looks wrong in B&W.

    Let's examine the wording again. We are talking about a COLOUR scheme. applied to a modern aircraft it should surely be presented in COLOUR ?

    All in all, I think Admin have got the rules right on this subject.

    And Wallace...that's a cracking shot of the bridge and I totally agree with your wish that you had a blur movement person under it.
    Last edited by brianw999; 04-18-2007 at 04:08 PM.
    If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !


  14. #54
    JPElite Member! Paul Maier's Avatar
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    I agree with Brian about BW being allowed on retro colour schemes.
    Scans/Slides yes, modern stuff nope.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by LX-A343
    • Black and white photos are only allowed on
      • scans of B/W negatives/slides

      • vintage aircraft or "vintage look alikes", i.e. retro painting schemes, replicas, etc.

      • in addition: "artistic" category has to be selected.
    The above is taken from the first post on this thread...






  16. #56
    JPElite Member! Paul Maier's Avatar
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    Mark, i think what Brian is saying is that the retro themes look ridiculous in BW, which is what i am agreeing to, in my poorly written inglish.

  17. #57
    Senior Member brianw999's Avatar
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    Actually, On re-reading the rules I think I see what Brick means now.
    Not modern aircraft in retro schemes but older, or replica older, aircraft repainted in original ( AKA retro ) schemes.

    If I've got it right now the Airbus example would not be allowed but a currently flying ( for example ) DC 6 repainted in ( for example ) original TWA colours would be allowed ?
    If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !


  18. #58
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    I agree on all the new policies and I find all people who manipulate photos to their grave is utterly ridiculous all I use to edit my photos is irfanview lol

    -Justin

  19. #59
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    Just to make sure. Does that mean that this photo (that I've been working very hard on), will not get accepted? It's an old aircraft, so I thought it should be B&W, but I liked the sunset. lol

    If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!

  20. #60
    Administrator Alex - Spot-This !'s Avatar
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    Mmmmh,
    I'm not sure you're joking or not ?
    Just in case you're not I'm not going to start the list of all the manipulation this picture has... not even starting by the fact it's 2 diff pictures...

    Alex

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