Turkish B738 crashlands in Amsterdam.

[xspeedy]

I guess it is the pilots that make up the three lost crew. From CNN:

At least three crew were among the dead.
"There are still three crew members in the cabin," said Bob Steensma of the Dutch Justice Department. "I'm sorry to say they are dead. We leave them there because we have to investigate the cockpit before we take the cockpit apart."

[eTang]

Dear All
I am sorry to tell you that a good friend of mine, Mr.Cuneyt Er,died today on this crash.

Condolence!

Here is something that may shed light to the issue; According to a THY pilot whose name I cannot say here the events took place as follows;

During approach to Schiphol, the Captain asks the F/O and training pilot to take over the flight. The training pilot, in contrary to company policy, extends the flaps 5% over the allowed zone to keep the plane in balance in view of hard winds from the tail. The plane starts to stall due to ...

What intrigues me: how could someone *not* being in the cockpit "know" allready precisely what had happened? [FDR found but not analyzed yet]

edit: I just watched german news online and also there they say that *maybe* a trainee pilot has been flying the airplane. [ http://www.zdf.de/ZDFmediathek/conte...0?inPopup=true ]

[Gallipolis]

1.The captain I mentioned made assumptions according to communications between the tower and the aircraft.
2.The captain professionally and personally knows all crew involved.
3.It is not uncommon for THY to let training/new pilots to approaches. In 1976, a THY Boeing 727 crashed in to Toros mountains in southern Turkey when the F/O mistook the city lights of Isparta (a town before Antalya) for Antalya airport and approached. According to the CVR the Captain realised the situation, ran to the cockpit shouting "break off you son of a b***". The new F/O, just off the air force, made an emergency left brake turn crashing the aircraft into the mountain. As far as I remember 176 died including crew.
4.The only way you can explain an engine flying off the plane with extreme force during an approach is aerodynamics failing. Well you tell me you are the experts.

Thanks for acknowledging my loss btw...

[eTang]

4.The only way you can explain an engine flying off the plane with extreme force during an approach is aerodynamics failing.

That was one point surprising me in early dutch TV news: on person stating that 'the plane had thrown off the engines'. AFAIK there's no 'throw off engines' feature in commercial airplanes. But this could match the theory of extreme stress on the structure due to a flight maneuvre which should not have been performed that way, right?

BBC and CNN display both wrong maps of the airport area on their websites. BBC does not even have the new polderbaan on their image yet, and on CNN, the polderbaan is not indicated as being a part of the airport.

Very easy to reproduce: it's a problem of Google-maps! Once you zoom out the "Polderbaan" suddenly disapears. Google seems to use older satelite/aerial photos for the overview view.

[eTang]

ATC communications online:

http://media.smh.com.au/?category=Breaking%20News&rid=46481

Last contact with Flight 1951

2009-02-26 06:52:51
Air traffic control recordings indicate nothing was wrong with Turkish Flight 1951 before radio contact was lost. Soon after, ATC declare an emergency.

source: SMH.com.au

[Spad13]

3.It is not uncommon for THY to let training/new pilots to approaches.

I don't know of any airline where that would be uncommon.

[YULchick]

Stupid question because I can`t remember off the top of my head, but is it possible that a B737 be affected by wake turbulence? I`m not sure at what point (size) an aircraft is considered a ``heavy``.

[Jan]

There is always speculation about fuel starvation when power is needed and not used or not available.

The aircraft appears to have stalled prior to contacting the ground. There is only one PAX (a bank manager) indicating the flight crew added power. I'll bet he felt the pose pitch up, but did not hear engines spooling. Several PAX stated they felt turbulence then the aircraft fell. Classic stall scenario. Black boxes will tell the story.

Everything we say is parlour talk at this stage, but when I heard the reports this morning about "turbulence" and a sudden fall, a stall was the first thing that came to my mind.

Question is what caused the stall...

Fuel starvation is possible. But even if the pilots didn't realise they were so low on fuel, and if both engines died at exactly the same moment, the plane would not have suddenly stalled.

A bird strike in both engines is possible. But birds don't stop a plane in mid-air. There would have been several seconds before the plane slowed below stall speed.

If it was indeed a stall, my first guess would be a wrong flap setting and/or too low power setting. Add some tail wind and you can indeed suddenly fall out of the sky...

Jan

[Jan]

Stupid question because I can`t remember off the top of my head, but is it possible that a B737 be affected by wake turbulence? I`m not sure at what point (size) an aircraft is considered a ``heavy``.

I don't think so...

Landing planes come in slow, and with just enough power to overcome the flap induced drag.

Planes taking off from the same runway, leave the ground several kilometers further.

Jan

[Airbus_A320]

Stupid question because I can`t remember off the top of my head, but is it possible that a B737 be affected by wake turbulence? I`m not sure at what point (size) an aircraft is considered a ``heavy``.

Any plane can be affected by wake turbulence. Even if do a good enough steep turn in a 172 for example, you'll get buffeted by your own wake. There are spacing requirements that ATC has to follow so that wake has a chance to dissipate. A heavy is over 200,000lb IIRC.

[mawheatley]

I am sorry to tell you that a good friend of mine, Mr.Cuneyt Er,died today on this crash. He was flying to Amsterdam to continue his masters program.

I'm very sorry to hear this. My prayers are with you and all the families involved.

[Airbus_A320]

First of all, condolences on the loss of your friend...

Immediately after realising the situation, the F/O pushes hard on the throttles without taking them off approach mode on the TO/GO autopilot. Due to extreme winds and pressure on the left engine, the connecting pieces get loose and the engine falls of the plane. Due to loss of engine power,the aircraft plummets to the ground,killing 10 and wounding dozens.

So are you basically saying that the flaps were extended at an airspeed that was above the limit for the flap setting therefore causing a structural failure?

[mawheatley]

So are you basically saying that the flaps were extended at an airspeed that was above the limit for the flap setting therefore causing a structural failure?

As I read it, I think what's being said is that the enormous thrust generated by pushing the throttles wide open, combined with a wrongly configured aeroplane, caused the structural failure.

[G-DALE]

Stupid question because I can`t remember off the top of my head, but is it possible that a B737 be affected by wake turbulence? I`m not sure at what point (size) an aircraft is considered a ``heavy``.

I don't think so...

Landing planes come in slow, and with just enough power to overcome the flap induced drag.

Planes taking off from the same runway, leave the ground several kilometers further.

Jan

News reports state that the aircraft that landed prior was a B757. Taking in account that the huge amount of wake that can be produced from this type, it shouldn't be ruled out. It's also for that very reason (aswell as a MTOW of 100,000kgs +) that the type is sometimes considered as a 'heavy!'

A good explanation about wake turbulence - http://www.avweb.com/news/airman/183095-1.html

[mawheatley]

News reports state that the aircraft that landed prior was a B757. Taking in account that the huge amount of wake that can be produced from this type, it shouldn't be ruled out. It's also for that very reason (aswell as a MTOW of 100,000kgs +) that the type is sometimes considered as a 'heavy!'

Yes the 757 can produce a big wake. I remember when I was at LHR the staff car park was directly under the approach to runway 27L - literally just shy of where BA038 ended up. Very often a 757 would fly over, then a good 20 seconds later you'd hear a "ghost" aeroplane landing after it. Took me a while to figure out what that was, but I noticed it was always after 757.