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Thread: Embraer 145 questions

  1. #21
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanner_J View Post
    They may be young pilots, but that doesn't mean their less professional. Most graduates of my school end up at ExpressJet flying the ERJ-145 and I can tell you not only do we have top notch flight training with the degree and college courses to back it up, ExpressJet has one of the best training regiments for their new hires.
    I'm very glad to hear that.

    However, I need to understand how young pilots can sit at FL410 with a 20 degree nose up angle, watching their airpseed decay over a period of a minute or two until the stick shaker starts going off, but then LET the plane stall itself.

    I also need to understand how a different young, less experienced dude's response to a stick shaker is to pull up "as hard as you can" to a 30 degree nose up attitude.

    What is the screening procedure that separates your pilots from these others, and how, as a passenger, do I know that I will get one of your pilots?
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    I also need to understand how a different young, less experienced dude's response to a stick shaker is to pull up "as hard as you can" to a 30 degree nose up attitude.
    That Colgan Air? Easy...the dude got scared when the plane stalled and he pulled up.

    Kind of like when a car starts to hydroplane during rain and people hit the brakes as hard as they can.

    But he should have relied on his co-pilot for guidance. Wait, er, no, the copilot was scared because she had never seen icing like that.

    HOWEVER, I am hoping that American Eagle pilots (the airline I am flying) are better than that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    Having fun yet?

    (Make no mistake- a good effort to explain things, and excellent explanations too.)

    While you are at it- I've always worried about DC-9/MD-80 and ERJ aircraft- that uneven, left-to-right seating arrangement must put a lot of extra strain on the right wing- I'm always scared that it will fail if we were to encouter turbulence at a middle altitude.
    LOL, solved by ensuring an extra fat pilot or copilot (depending on layout obviously) ATSB directive AA-34/324?re3^)(

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanner_J View Post
    They may be young pilots, but that doesn't mean their less professional. Most graduates of my school end up at ExpressJet flying the ERJ-145 and I can tell you not only do we have top notch flight training with the degree and college courses to back it up, ExpressJet has one of the best training regiments for their new hires.
    Didn't comment on their professionalism, but the experience they have had is most likely going to be less than somebody in command of a heavy. Experience does breed a number of things including occasionally complacency and contempt, but it also does give a pilot a chance to experience far more situations and conditions than somebody straight out of training. Generally speaking, a skilled pilot with more hours will be safer than a skilled pilot pretty much straight out of training.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apooh View Post
    That Colgan Air? Easy...the dude got scared when the plane stalled and he pulled up.

    Kind of like when a car starts to hydroplane during rain and people hit the brakes as hard as they can.
    But I like to think that Greyhound bus drivers, who are professionals and have extra training, would know that slamming on the brakes is the worst thing to do. However, you are correct that that is likely the explanation.

    As to your other smart-assed comment about the FO (I'm being complimentary), I would ask: Are you Putt-4-Par?
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post

    I also need to understand how a different young, less experienced dude's response to a stick shaker is to pull up "as hard as you can" to a 30 degree nose up attitude.
    wasn't he fresh out of flying a saab or some of a/c where the correct procedure for a tail stall WAS yanking back on the stick? not positive but i think i read that somewhere...

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    When an aircraft is stalling...why in the world would you yank back, no matter the aircraft. Maybe I'm wrong (I only have 230 hours) but it just doesn't make sense.

    In the days leading up to the crash (no joke) I heard from a captain at another airline who flew on Colgan as a non-rev and said he would never put his family on them because their training is shady and it was an overall bad experience. This was literally a day before the flight went down in Buffalo.

    If you let an airplane stall at 41,000 feet, you retarded to begin with. Is this referring to the CRJ that went down in Missouri? If so, that was pushing the envelope of the airplane with no one on board. I don't think you need to worry.

    I feel professionalism and experience will depend on the training. Did they come from Part 61 or Part 141. Did they go through a College Part 61 program or the one at the grass strip in the hills of Kentucky? Did they go through a College Part 141 program or the Part 141 program at your typical GA airport? It depends on the person and the training they received.

    Sure, at my school (Part 141 university) we have some pilots who I would consider not professional, and they are quickly weeded out. To make it through our program at the university you need to be dedicated to making it through the academics as well as the flying. If the grades don't meet a standard, you can't fly. I'm at the airport 5 days a week for 3 hours, either flying or in ground school. The rest of my classes are all aviation related dealing with aerodynamics, systems, air traffic control, human factors, or theories based on the course we're in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    As to your other smart-assed comment about the FO (I'm being complimentary), I would ask: Are you Putt-4-Par?
    You know, I really wish that the other forum was available so that I could go and read the posts of these people that you think are me. I could pick and choose the best and then claim that it is me.

    If I was a refuge from the other forum I would have probably used the same name. So no, it is not me.

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    But you go ahead and keep pointing out how obviously stupid you consider pilots to be "that could induce some care and patience". Incidentally if you were again alluding to the Canary Islands incident, the 'impatience' wasn't due to the KLM pilot wanting to get on the turps early - it was because he was restricted in the flight hours he could do in any one period - you know, one of those pesky safety rules.
    I don't know about the "stupidity" of pilots. It seems to me that I'm not the one using that word. It seems to me there's an overpopulation of overly-emotional people here. I wonder what attracts them.

    If I'm the KLM pilot, by that time I'd have called the corporate office and told them "I'm too close to my limit on flying hours. This plane is going nowhere till you put a rested pilot down here." I read that airline managements "intimidate" pilots into breaking rules. But I ask myself how can they intimidate a guy at his age? Does he have 3 kids in college or something? In any case, I don't care what their threats may be, my life is more important than anything they can take away, so I lay it on the line and then go curl up with whatever there is to read, knowing my passengers are going to get a fresh pilot.

    Complaining passengers? Ha! Better for them to be irritated than dead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TeeVee View Post
    wasn't he fresh out of flying a saab or some of a/c where the correct procedure for a tail stall WAS yanking back on the stick? not positive but i think i read that somewhere...
    The correct procedure for a tail stall is to pull back as needed to counteract the aerodynamic "push down" force caused by the tail stall, and to restore the level 1G flight, and definitely NOT yanking back on the stick and keep it back to the stops all the time while the aiprlane pitches up to 30 degrees under 1.5Gs, loses lateral control and spirals to the ground.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EconomyClass View Post
    I don't know about the "stupidity" of pilots. It seems to me that I'm not the one using that word. It seems to me there's an overpopulation of overly-emotional people here. I wonder what attracts them.
    Nah, I don't think there is an overpopulation of overly emotional people here - could it be perhaps that it's you? Given some of your inane pronoucements and proclaimations about the industry and the people within it you even managed to get a lurker who had never posted before come out and tell you to pull your head in.

    Quote Originally Posted by EconomyClass View Post
    If I'm the KLM pilot, by that time I'd have called the corporate office and told them "I'm too close to my limit on flying hours. This plane is going nowhere till you put a rested pilot down here." I read that airline managements "intimidate" pilots into breaking rules. But I ask myself how can they intimidate a guy at his age? Does he have 3 kids in college or something? In any case, I don't care what their threats may be, my life is more important than anything they can take away, so I lay it on the line and then go curl up with whatever there is to read, knowing my passengers are going to get a fresh pilot.

    Complaining passengers? Ha! Better for them to be irritated than dead.
    Good to hear you live, work and breath in some artificial la-la land with absolutely no external pressures. Besides that point he was well within his hours to take the actions he did. Had he waited another minute the other 747 would have been clear of the runway. Had one radio message not been garbled, again the incident would probably never have happened either. Pilots are not stupid or generally suicidal. Your contention that he should not have attempted to go anywhere is stupid and pointless. There was a breakdown in communications in thick fog, and a lack of CRM on the KLM flightdeck. End of story. Feel free to pick it to pieces as you have tried to do in the past (and been pointed out just how wrong you were then too) but don't whinge when you get kicked down again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apooh View Post
    That Colgan Air? Easy...the dude got scared when the plane stalled and he pulled up.

    Kind of like when a car starts to hydroplane during rain and people hit the brakes as hard as they can.

    But he should have relied on his co-pilot for guidance. Wait, er, no, the copilot was scared because she had never seen icing like that.

    HOWEVER, I am hoping that American Eagle pilots (the airline I am flying) are better than that.
    I don't know anything about flying an aircraft, but I do know that if someone, even with less experience than I have at my job, makes a statement to the effect of "that's alot of ice, if I had seen it I thought we were going to crash" I think common sense says the situation might need more attention, than a reply of " it's more than I've seen in a while." It really sucks, we will never get those people back. Over the past 10 years, I've seen a welcome change in how Airlines operate, when winter operations are in full swing. Even Southwest scales back there ops in a snowstorm effected city. It stinks, but it's alot safer and cheaper to call it quits, and try again tomorrow, then to lose a hull and the souls aboard it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apooh View Post
    I usually try to avoid smaller jets but with all the recent fly cuts, etc... it is more and more difficult to fly larger jets to certain locations. Such is the case of my next scheduled flight.

    1. What is the story about 500hr pilots flying most of these regional jets...especifically American Eagle? It seems that a few recent accidents were caused by this lack of experience (Colgan Air, etc...).

    2. Is turbulence going to feel worse on a smaller aircract due to weight? In other words, is it true that light turbulence on a B767 would feel like moderate on a ERJ145?

    Thanks.
    Back to the original post, Eagle did hire some low time pilots during the last hiring boom. Hiring has stopped hiring since then (they've even laid off a few pilots) and I would think that most of those low time pilots still flying are closing in on at least 1000 hours in type if they've stayed on the same fleet since they've been on property. Eagle also has a notoriously senior work group. The most junior captain has over 9 years with the company, so expect the captain to be highly experienced.

    The EMB has a short wing span and a stiff spar so it does pronounce turbulence a little more than bigger jets. If turbulence bothers you a lot, try to sit in a seat over or near the wings. I sit in the pointy end where turbulence is felt the worst, but we've got 5-point restraints so it's all good.

    Anything else you want to know about the -145, send me a PM.

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    Good to hear you live, work and breath in some artificial la-la land with absolutely no external pressures. Besides that point he was well within his hours to take the actions he did
    Experience has taught me that you can impress certain of the participants with that style of argument. To me, it just shows how inane you are.

    I don't live in any "la la land". Rather, I've always had the courage at work to do the right thing. Not always popular with the management, but why the hell should I care? No matter what I've done, it is I who have chosen when to leave jobs, so obviously managers don't encounter that kind of courage in underlings. I can only imagine what you do to handle pressure at work.

    Anyway, the guy and his passengers are dead. You're still going to argue he made a smart decision. That only tells me how little you require to label something smart. Don't bring in the other factors. One and only one action in that scenario created the most deadly crash of all time. I wonder if any of his superiors scratched their heads later and said WTF? I'll bet none of them would have jumped the gate like that either..

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    Quote Originally Posted by EconomyClass View Post
    One and only one action in that scenario created the most deadly crash of all time.
    Really? Never heard of: "All the holes in the swiss cheese lined up"?

    Do some reading then get back to us. Even doing a net search turns up terms like "chain of events leading up to". Unless you are talking deliberate sabotage or suicide, the safety systems in place probably mean that a whole series of incidents, none of them lethal by themselves have to connect before there is a problem.

    Obviously doesn't apply in LaLa Land.

    The holes in the swiss cheese:

    1. Terrorist bombing at GCIA necessitating diversion of aircraft to a smaller scondary airport at Tenerrif.

    2. Fog.

    3. No gound radar.

    4. Similtaneous communications (resulting in jamming)

    5. Poor CRM

    6. Flying hours restrictions

    7. Decision to refuel KLM aircraft "Captain van Zanten had decided to fully refuel at Los Rodeos instead of Las Palmas, apparently to save time, but added extra weight, greatly retarding liftoff (and accident escape) ability, which proved fatal."

    8. Language difficulties


    But EC, you can pin it down to one thing! AND from a distance of several thousand miles and 30 years! You are indeed incredible, and I find it a travesty that the UN doesn't appoint you to some overarching air safety guru role.

    Can we please have suggestions as to the title of this role?

    I'll start: International Super Genius Crash Investigator of the Millenium? Reminds me of something...can't put my finger on it...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    The correct procedure for a tail stall is to pull back as needed to counteract the aerodynamic "push down" force caused by the tail stall, and to restore the level 1G flight, and definitely NOT yanking back on the stick and keep it back to the stops all the time while the aiprlane pitches up to 30 degrees under 1.5Gs, loses lateral control and spirals to the ground.
    since i do not fly anything except a seat in the cabin, i guess my terminology was wrong. i meant that the procedure he was used to was apparently not correct for the Dash. obviously he was wrong on many things. (read ITS' posts in the colgan thread)

    i'm not qualified to comment other than to say what i thought i had read somewhere...my apologies

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    Quote Originally Posted by SYDCBRWOD View Post
    Really? Never heard of: "All the holes in the swiss cheese lined up"?

    Do some reading then get back to us. Even doing a net search turns up terms like "chain of events leading up to". Unless you are talking deliberate sabotage or suicide, the safety systems in place probably mean that a whole series of incidents, none of them lethal by themselves have to connect before there is a problem.

    Obviously doesn't apply in LaLa Land.

    The holes in the swiss cheese:

    1. Terrorist bombing at GCIA necessitating diversion of aircraft to a smaller scondary airport at Tenerrif.

    2. Fog.

    3. No gound radar.

    4. Similtaneous communications (resulting in jamming)

    5. Poor CRM

    6. Flying hours restrictions

    7. Decision to refuel KLM aircraft "Captain van Zanten had decided to fully refuel at Los Rodeos instead of Las Palmas, apparently to save time, but added extra weight, greatly retarding liftoff (and accident escape) ability, which proved fatal."

    8. Language difficulties


    But EC, you can pin it down to one thing! AND from a distance of several thousand miles and 30 years! You are indeed incredible, and I find it a travesty that the UN doesn't appoint you to some overarching air safety guru role.

    Can we please have suggestions as to the title of this role?

    I'll start: International Super Genius Crash Investigator of the Millenium? Reminds me of something...can't put my finger on it...
    Syd, you always do that! bringing the truth in...dammit!

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    Quote Originally Posted by TeeVee View Post
    since i do not fly anything except a seat in the cabin, i guess my terminology was wrong. i meant that the procedure he was used to was apparently not correct for the Dash. obviously he was wrong on many things. (read ITS' posts in the colgan thread)

    i'm not qualified to comment other than to say what i thought i had read somewhere...my apologies
    Ok, to make things short, there are wing stalls and tail stalls.
    The procedures to recovery from them are prety standard regardless of the airplane type.

    Wing stall: Manage pitch (elevator) to keep/bring the angle of attack below stall and add power.

    The tail stall is a matter of the airflow separating over the movable part of the elevator, which creates strong arodynamic forces that move the elevator by itself commanding "nose down" without any pilot input, so the airplane starts to dive as if the pilot would have pushed down on the yoke. The recovery here is to pull up to overcome that aerodynamic force and to bring the plane back to 1G level flight.

    There is absolutely no stall recovery procedure in any airplane that calls for pulling up to a 1.5Gs and 30 degress nose up climb and then keeping pulling up to the stops as the plane finally fully stalls and spins to the ground.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3WE View Post
    I also need to understand how a different young, less experienced dude's response to a stick shaker is to pull up "as hard as you can" to a 30 degree nose up attitude.
    If you're referring to the Colgan crash, I believe Capt Renslow wasn't all that young.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Curtis Malone View Post
    If you're referring to the Colgan crash, I believe Capt Renslow wasn't all that young.
    "Young" is a relative term, so indeed, you may offer an alternative view on his age.

    However, please provide an age distribution profile of "big iron" pilots and where Renslow falls on it, and then let me know his relative age.

    It could also be valuable to do the same for his flight experience.
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