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  • #31
    Originally posted by EconomyClass View Post
    I don't know about the "stupidity" of pilots. It seems to me that I'm not the one using that word. It seems to me there's an overpopulation of overly-emotional people here. I wonder what attracts them.
    Nah, I don't think there is an overpopulation of overly emotional people here - could it be perhaps that it's you? Given some of your inane pronoucements and proclaimations about the industry and the people within it you even managed to get a lurker who had never posted before come out and tell you to pull your head in.

    Originally posted by EconomyClass View Post
    If I'm the KLM pilot, by that time I'd have called the corporate office and told them "I'm too close to my limit on flying hours. This plane is going nowhere till you put a rested pilot down here." I read that airline managements "intimidate" pilots into breaking rules. But I ask myself how can they intimidate a guy at his age? Does he have 3 kids in college or something? In any case, I don't care what their threats may be, my life is more important than anything they can take away, so I lay it on the line and then go curl up with whatever there is to read, knowing my passengers are going to get a fresh pilot.

    Complaining passengers? Ha! Better for them to be irritated than dead.
    Good to hear you live, work and breath in some artificial la-la land with absolutely no external pressures. Besides that point he was well within his hours to take the actions he did. Had he waited another minute the other 747 would have been clear of the runway. Had one radio message not been garbled, again the incident would probably never have happened either. Pilots are not stupid or generally suicidal. Your contention that he should not have attempted to go anywhere is stupid and pointless. There was a breakdown in communications in thick fog, and a lack of CRM on the KLM flightdeck. End of story. Feel free to pick it to pieces as you have tried to do in the past (and been pointed out just how wrong you were then too) but don't whinge when you get kicked down again.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Apooh View Post
      That Colgan Air? Easy...the dude got scared when the plane stalled and he pulled up.

      Kind of like when a car starts to hydroplane during rain and people hit the brakes as hard as they can.

      But he should have relied on his co-pilot for guidance. Wait, er, no, the copilot was scared because she had never seen icing like that.

      HOWEVER, I am hoping that American Eagle pilots (the airline I am flying) are better than that.
      I don't know anything about flying an aircraft, but I do know that if someone, even with less experience than I have at my job, makes a statement to the effect of "that's alot of ice, if I had seen it I thought we were going to crash" I think common sense says the situation might need more attention, than a reply of " it's more than I've seen in a while." It really sucks, we will never get those people back. Over the past 10 years, I've seen a welcome change in how Airlines operate, when winter operations are in full swing. Even Southwest scales back there ops in a snowstorm effected city. It stinks, but it's alot safer and cheaper to call it quits, and try again tomorrow, then to lose a hull and the souls aboard it.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Apooh View Post
        I usually try to avoid smaller jets but with all the recent fly cuts, etc... it is more and more difficult to fly larger jets to certain locations. Such is the case of my next scheduled flight.

        1. What is the story about 500hr pilots flying most of these regional jets...especifically American Eagle? It seems that a few recent accidents were caused by this lack of experience (Colgan Air, etc...).

        2. Is turbulence going to feel worse on a smaller aircract due to weight? In other words, is it true that light turbulence on a B767 would feel like moderate on a ERJ145?

        Thanks.
        Back to the original post, Eagle did hire some low time pilots during the last hiring boom. Hiring has stopped hiring since then (they've even laid off a few pilots) and I would think that most of those low time pilots still flying are closing in on at least 1000 hours in type if they've stayed on the same fleet since they've been on property. Eagle also has a notoriously senior work group. The most junior captain has over 9 years with the company, so expect the captain to be highly experienced.

        The EMB has a short wing span and a stiff spar so it does pronounce turbulence a little more than bigger jets. If turbulence bothers you a lot, try to sit in a seat over or near the wings. I sit in the pointy end where turbulence is felt the worst, but we've got 5-point restraints so it's all good.

        Anything else you want to know about the -145, send me a PM.
        Van Hoolio's JP.net Photos
        lp.org

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        • #34
          Good to hear you live, work and breath in some artificial la-la land with absolutely no external pressures. Besides that point he was well within his hours to take the actions he did
          Experience has taught me that you can impress certain of the participants with that style of argument. To me, it just shows how inane you are.

          I don't live in any "la la land". Rather, I've always had the courage at work to do the right thing. Not always popular with the management, but why the hell should I care? No matter what I've done, it is I who have chosen when to leave jobs, so obviously managers don't encounter that kind of courage in underlings. I can only imagine what you do to handle pressure at work.

          Anyway, the guy and his passengers are dead. You're still going to argue he made a smart decision. That only tells me how little you require to label something smart. Don't bring in the other factors. One and only one action in that scenario created the most deadly crash of all time. I wonder if any of his superiors scratched their heads later and said WTF? I'll bet none of them would have jumped the gate like that either..

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          • #35
            Originally posted by EconomyClass View Post
            One and only one action in that scenario created the most deadly crash of all time.
            Really? Never heard of: "All the holes in the swiss cheese lined up"?

            Do some reading then get back to us. Even doing a net search turns up terms like "chain of events leading up to". Unless you are talking deliberate sabotage or suicide, the safety systems in place probably mean that a whole series of incidents, none of them lethal by themselves have to connect before there is a problem.

            Obviously doesn't apply in LaLa Land.

            The holes in the swiss cheese:

            1. Terrorist bombing at GCIA necessitating diversion of aircraft to a smaller scondary airport at Tenerrif.

            2. Fog.

            3. No gound radar.

            4. Similtaneous communications (resulting in jamming)

            5. Poor CRM

            6. Flying hours restrictions

            7. Decision to refuel KLM aircraft "Captain van Zanten had decided to fully refuel at Los Rodeos instead of Las Palmas, apparently to save time, but added extra weight, greatly retarding liftoff (and accident escape) ability, which proved fatal."

            8. Language difficulties


            But EC, you can pin it down to one thing! AND from a distance of several thousand miles and 30 years! You are indeed incredible, and I find it a travesty that the UN doesn't appoint you to some overarching air safety guru role.

            Can we please have suggestions as to the title of this role?

            I'll start: International Super Genius Crash Investigator of the Millenium? Reminds me of something...can't put my finger on it...

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
              The correct procedure for a tail stall is to pull back as needed to counteract the aerodynamic "push down" force caused by the tail stall, and to restore the level 1G flight, and definitely NOT yanking back on the stick and keep it back to the stops all the time while the aiprlane pitches up to 30 degrees under 1.5Gs, loses lateral control and spirals to the ground.
              since i do not fly anything except a seat in the cabin, i guess my terminology was wrong. i meant that the procedure he was used to was apparently not correct for the Dash. obviously he was wrong on many things. (read ITS' posts in the colgan thread)

              i'm not qualified to comment other than to say what i thought i had read somewhere...my apologies

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by SYDCBRWOD View Post
                Really? Never heard of: "All the holes in the swiss cheese lined up"?

                Do some reading then get back to us. Even doing a net search turns up terms like "chain of events leading up to". Unless you are talking deliberate sabotage or suicide, the safety systems in place probably mean that a whole series of incidents, none of them lethal by themselves have to connect before there is a problem.

                Obviously doesn't apply in LaLa Land.

                The holes in the swiss cheese:

                1. Terrorist bombing at GCIA necessitating diversion of aircraft to a smaller scondary airport at Tenerrif.

                2. Fog.

                3. No gound radar.

                4. Similtaneous communications (resulting in jamming)

                5. Poor CRM

                6. Flying hours restrictions

                7. Decision to refuel KLM aircraft "Captain van Zanten had decided to fully refuel at Los Rodeos instead of Las Palmas, apparently to save time, but added extra weight, greatly retarding liftoff (and accident escape) ability, which proved fatal."

                8. Language difficulties


                But EC, you can pin it down to one thing! AND from a distance of several thousand miles and 30 years! You are indeed incredible, and I find it a travesty that the UN doesn't appoint you to some overarching air safety guru role.

                Can we please have suggestions as to the title of this role?

                I'll start: International Super Genius Crash Investigator of the Millenium? Reminds me of something...can't put my finger on it...
                Syd, you always do that! bringing the truth in...dammit!

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                  since i do not fly anything except a seat in the cabin, i guess my terminology was wrong. i meant that the procedure he was used to was apparently not correct for the Dash. obviously he was wrong on many things. (read ITS' posts in the colgan thread)

                  i'm not qualified to comment other than to say what i thought i had read somewhere...my apologies
                  Ok, to make things short, there are wing stalls and tail stalls.
                  The procedures to recovery from them are prety standard regardless of the airplane type.

                  Wing stall: Manage pitch (elevator) to keep/bring the angle of attack below stall and add power.

                  The tail stall is a matter of the airflow separating over the movable part of the elevator, which creates strong arodynamic forces that move the elevator by itself commanding "nose down" without any pilot input, so the airplane starts to dive as if the pilot would have pushed down on the yoke. The recovery here is to pull up to overcome that aerodynamic force and to bring the plane back to 1G level flight.

                  There is absolutely no stall recovery procedure in any airplane that calls for pulling up to a 1.5Gs and 30 degress nose up climb and then keeping pulling up to the stops as the plane finally fully stalls and spins to the ground.

                  --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                  --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                    I also need to understand how a different young, less experienced dude's response to a stick shaker is to pull up "as hard as you can" to a 30 degree nose up attitude.
                    If you're referring to the Colgan crash, I believe Capt Renslow wasn't all that young.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Curtis Malone View Post
                      If you're referring to the Colgan crash, I believe Capt Renslow wasn't all that young.
                      "Young" is a relative term, so indeed, you may offer an alternative view on his age.

                      However, please provide an age distribution profile of "big iron" pilots and where Renslow falls on it, and then let me know his relative age.

                      It could also be valuable to do the same for his flight experience.
                      Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                        "Young" is a relative term, so indeed, you may offer an alternative view on his age.

                        However, please provide an age distribution profile of "big iron" pilots and where Renslow falls on it, and then let me know his relative age.

                        It could also be valuable to do the same for his flight experience.
                        I'm not entirely sure on what you mean by "age distribution profile" or where I would find such a thing, but my point was that at age 47 Capt Renslow was hardly a "young pilot". Consider that until recently he would only have been 13 years away from mandatory retirement. I am no expert on his experience or skill.

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                        • #42
                          All those other things merely got the KLM plane where it was. The captain's decision to go rather than get permission was not in any way compelled by anything else that happened. In fact, it was a nullification of what he had been telling his pilot students.

                          I think you guys gotta get out of defensive mode once in a blue moon. Stop defending killers just because you love professional pilots so much.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by EconomyClass View Post
                            All those other things merely got the KLM plane where it was. The captain's decision to go rather than get permission was not in any way compelled by anything else that happened. In fact, it was a nullification of what he had been telling his pilot students.

                            I think you guys gotta get out of defensive mode once in a blue moon. Stop defending killers just because you love professional pilots so much.
                            In just reread the CVR transcripts. I didn't catch the conversation you refer to- FO: "We don't have pemission", Captain: "I have decided that we will take off without it"

                            Instead, the control tower (who throughout the affair had used rough English) said "you are cleared" as they were going into position. That sure seems ripe to be interpreted as "permission"

                            And, why in your wild acusation here- do you overlook Syd's item #4: Pan Am's broadcast that they were still on the runway, but it is blocked by a simultaneous tower transmission. Reviews of all three tapes confirm that the tower and Pan Am broadcast at the same time and KLM's CVR records a radio squeal at the exact same time... Could it be that this doesn't support your conclusion...yeah, I hate it when facts get in the way, so let's just ignore them.

                            But never mind, you are right and the other 95% of us on these forums are wrong, so carry on.
                            Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Well, only flown once with this series of E-jets and I had a pleasant ride from Warszaw to Oslo with LOT.
                              As for pilot hours on the 145, I´m sure the depressed job market forces more pilot to stick with their 135/145 so it´s getting better.
                              "The real CEO of the 787 project is named Potemkin"

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Curtis Malone View Post
                                I'm not entirely sure on what you mean by "age distribution profile" or where I would find such a thing, but my point was that at age 47 Capt Renslow was hardly a "young pilot". Consider that until recently he would only have been 13 years away from mandatory retirement. I am no expert on his experience or skill.
                                I seem to remember that, even when he was 47 years old, he hadn't been a pilot for very long. A few years, yes, but let's say that he was a late bloomer and he didn't become a pilot at 22. He also failed a couple of checks/tests.

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