Pilots Nodded Off Before Landing?

[P3_Super_Bee]

I love the way pilots think there is such a thing as 9-to-5. That went out in the sixties I think. Most people I know work 10-12 hour days, along with the occasional late nights and weekends. They stay awake though.

Ahh most of my friends work 9 to 5 type jobs. So it hasn't gone ANYWHERE.

Also it is a LOT easier to stay awake while working, say out on a flight line, or in a factory when you are DOING something besides just sitting there scanning gauges.

Working jacked up flight schedules takes a toll. Ever wondered why doing hi-tempo ops the Military uses go/no-go pills? Hell it sucks working the flight line in those conditions. When we first hit the gulf in Sep 01 we were flying 8 hours off 8 hours.

[TeeVee]

moron, stupid, insane?

sounds like words that should get someone here banned.

seriously, there are some folks here that are too immature to have a discussion with others that do not agree with his ASSumptions. especially when he admits to not even knowing what he is posting!!!

you know who you are. grow up or go away.

[Evan]

Also it is a LOT easier to stay awake while working, say out on a flight line, or in a factory when you are DOING something besides just sitting there scanning gauges.

Ok, so I guess being an airline pilot is more boring than screwing on doll heads at the Barbie factory. From what I am learning here, the hardest part of the job seems to be staying awake.

So why DO people want to be airline pilots?

[MCM]

G'day Gabriel,

In my part of the world there is no specific legislation as I know it prohibiting controlled rest on the flight deck. My airline has an SOP that covers when and where you can and can't do it. It takes into account the realities of operation, and has protocols to ensure you both don't doze off, and strict time limits. It also takes into account issues like sleep inertia.

In terms of an alarm to wake you up, the 747 certainly has one, although I don't know if all airlines have it fitted. Its a "Pilot Response" monitor, and starts with a low level advisory message, and if you don't respond by doing something (anything) then escalates through a caution message into a full blown warning with all the lights and sirens. I imagine the time from activity to advisory is settable by the airline... I think ours was about 20 minutes.

G'day Evan,

I'll preface this by saying that I'm not completely convinced about the "sleep" concept either... this is just a more general post.

I certainly agree that it is less than desirable that pilots fall asleep.

In fact, it is completely unacceptable that both do. Unfortunately, it occasionally happens. While what you say about there being harder jobs out there, that is true, but I can tell you its up there with the most mentally draining ones. Humans are very poor monitors, and that is why we have the systems we do. While we certainly do monitor the instruments, I think you overestimate a little what that entails, especially in modern aircraft that have aurals and messages that will tell you something is wrong before you can pick it up yourself.

Thats not saying you can switch off completely, but it does mean you don't have to be staring at the instruments constantly... its just not possible to do that while effectively monitoring a situation.

By the way the schedule that Darren posted was a domestic one, and the equivalent could easily be flown in the USA.

[MCM]

We want to be pilots because we're born aviators and could think of nothing worse than being not able to fly. Its a bug, and once you've got it, thats it. Airline flying is really, pretty boring. You can have a far more enjoyable time doing aerobatics or something like that. Even though its boring, and hard work... I still wouldn't choose anything that wasn't flying.

Nobody in their right mind would choose it as a career if they didn't have that passion.

[Evan]

We want to be pilots because we're born aviators and could think of nothing worse than being not able to fly. Its a bug, and once you've got it, thats it. Airline flying is really, pretty boring. You can have a far more enjoyable time doing aerobatics or something like that. Even though its boring, and hard work... I still wouldn't choose anything that wasn't flying.

Nobody in their right mind would choose it as a career if they didn't have that passion.

That's what I mean... it's a hard profession, but there's definitely a passion driving pilots to be pilots, and then there's this unexpected monotony... it's hard to reconcile. I want my pilots to be passionately involved in the monotonous part... if only because they are flying through the sky while the rest of us are stuck in some droll office job. But I suppose every thrill gets old after a while. The idea of piloting an A320 is exciting to me, but only because of the novelty involved. When it becomes routine, it becomes a job. This is probably why I got as far as the sim and then reconsidered my path in life.

I still consider piloting to be a calling that must be reserved for those who have what it takes to deal with the entire reality of the job however. I think that has to be enforced with the same rigidity as in professional sports. You start throwing outside pitches, you get bumped to the minors. The game is the game, and excuses, no matter how justified, aren't worth the lives that they might cost.

[Evan]

But I would like add that I don't think it is justified to simply pull their licenses over this incident. That is a senseless waste of talent and experience, and talent and experience is what I want in the cockpit. This should be merely a matter of readdressing the issue of discipline internally with these pilots. It should be an internal matter overseen by the FAA. I feel fairly confident that these pilots won't make the same mistake in the future, but they might yet save some lives.

[SYDCBRWOD]

Thanks for your attempt to translate. I don’t know if the photo and story is legitimate or not. I’ve heard a similar story that was obviously bogus that may have been a metamorphosis of the story. I’ve heard what seems to be ridiculous claims that microwave jammers were used against guided bombs that were targeting tanks.

Why use a microwave jammer? Tank plinking with bombs is done using Laser Guided Bombs (LGB's) or if they are emplaced, GPS guided Small Diameter Bombs. In GW1 this is one of the jobs the F111's and their LGB's excelled at. Jammers are only effective against objects emitting electromagnetic radiation - to "jam" an LGB you need to fire a high powered laser at its seeker so it cannot see the splash from the target being painted. Good luck with doing that.

You once again display your ignorance and make wild and ridiculous assumptions and try to hold me accountable for YOUR stupidity.

Oh rlly? My stupidity? Let me see, who bought up the use of microwave ovens? And now who is trying to move heaven and earth to try and defend an untenable position?

With the stupid assumptions you made is that you falsely assume that all anti-radiation missiles are fired in a locked on mode. Some anti-radiation missiles are designed and can be reprogrammed to acquire a target on its own after being launched. Some anti-radiation missiles are even designed to loiter and search until it finds a suitable target; if not they self-destruct.

Been doing some research eh? That would explain why you haven't replied to my post for a couple of days. Did Foxnews give you all the answers you were looking for? FYI I did not make any distinction between anti radiation missiles that can be launched to loiter and those that need to be locked on before firing. Here's a clue, against a stone age enemy using hit and run tactics and nothing heavier than mortars and artillery rockets, why would the USAF or NATO be launching very bloody expensive missiles to loiter and then strike against radar sites that the Taleban don't have? Missiles such as these are normally used against sophisticated defence networks, not stoneage adversaries.

Only a moron like you would try to connect microwave ovens being used in a kitchen to cook with one that has been modified to be used tactically.

Only a moron would try and tell the world that the taleban are using microwave ovens tactically. Remember, you bought this subject up. I've already told you why that would not be the case, but you just go ahead, hurl insults and dig yourself deeper.

A microwave oven used in the kitchen has shielding to prevent injury to the operators; thusly the only radiation is leaky and it’s very minor. However if the safety devices are altered and altered in such a way to enhance radiation and mimic aircraft radar then an anti-radiation missile would be more likely to take the bait.

Ahh, back to "thusly" - this must be serious.... Answer me this question - Why? Why would the Taleban want to get the coalition to 'take the bait' and launch AGM 88's at modified microwave ovens? Are they trying to win the war by bankrupting the US? They cannot be trying to use up all the available HARM's so their carefully hidden well networked anti-aircraft network can spring into life and smite the USAF from the skies can it? Here's a clue and one you might understand - you are constructing a straw man argument over something that doesn't exist.

Mimic an anti aircraft radar, so that would mean mimicing the exact frequency, the PRF, the power output etc... Err, yeah that's easy. I'll just slip down to k mart and buy the right bits, a soldering iron etc, Oh, and I'll just slip out to the University of Herat and do my Electronics and Radar tech's course too shall I?

You’re a complete idiot to think I’m implying that the Taliban have S-300. I don’t know if they do or not; it doesn’t seem to be their main MO yet. However IIRC they have a lot of experience using radar networks with antiaircraft guns; IIRC They use them to some affect against the Soviets. So the coalition likes to suppress the radar.

Soviets - pre 1979. Hmm, you are bang up to date aren't you. And yes, you are correct, the taleban don't have S-300 - their level of technology is they have just upgraded from cast iron to aluminium teapots.

Taliban Radar Systems Damaged by US Rockets
http://english.people.com.cn/english...013_82203.html

This article is 8, yes 8 years old. The radar systems they are talking about would have been a few radars used to direct air traffic in those areas of the afghani airspace. This was in the initial assault on the country - hardly an ongoing threat that you'd need to keep shooting off AGM 88's for. As I said before and I'll say again my bet is that there would be nearly no chance of this weaponry being carried by 99% of the
strike aircraft in theater, because simply there is no threat.

Anyway once again you have derailed the thread farther from the topic with your ridiculous and insane accusations.

You should enter comedy, your sense of irony is exquisite...Me with the insane accusations...

IIRC microwaves ovens are on the same frequencies or similar frequencies to some search radars. So seems plausible that a microwave has enough power and is on the right frequency that anti-radiation missiles could possibly be decoyed.

Allegedly this tactic was used IIRC during the Bosnia and Herzegovina, or some similar conflict in the region during that time frame. Allegedly these decoys were made up in the basement by a civilian in the resistance. It wouldn’t require hardly any technological expertise; a junior high school electronic science nerd could probably do it.

I think most modern anti-radiation missiles can be programmed to ignore these frequencies; however making a habit of doing so might result in us overlooking a tactical search radar.

Attached to what? I've already told you, the most serious threat when it comes to being shot down over Afg is RPG, trash fire (small arms from the ground) or the occassional heat seeker. NONE OF THESE SYSTEMS NEED RADAR. To operate a radar system the enemy would need at the very least a trailer or vehicle born system. This would be detected about 2 nanoseconds after coming out of hiding and would be destroyed. The Taleban deliberately do not use anything that cannot be easily carried and stowed.

I wasn’t kidding. Once again you are ridiculously taking what I said out of context. So you’re dumb enough to think that I was talking about using microwave oven decoys to directly attack aircraft? I suggest you look up the word “decoy”.

No, I understood what you had said, you were saying they were used to decoy anti radiation missiles. Again I ask, for what reason?

What I was talking about would require more power then a microwave, however it’s plausible that civilian radio and radar equipment could be modified to jam and/or destroy a UAV.

Rubbish. This is not the point you were making earlier - how very disingenuous of you. I also claim rubbish that a UAV could be jammed that easily. The Israelis have been making use of tactical UAV's for decades, longer than you septics - Hezbollah with all the backing of Syria could not field a jammer against these UAV's, so what makes you think that the taleban with more limited resources can? Additionally, jammers require power - where in most parts of AFg do you get masses of power? Also, as soon as you start transmitting a jamming signal, it would be picked up and located by any number of intelligence assets in the air over and around Afg. It would not be transmitting long.

Allegedly Flashdance and F-14 radar is so powerful that they can kill rabbits along the field; so as a rule the radar shouldn’t be operated on the ground unless safety measures are taken to prevent injury or damage. Allegedly as a safety demonstration they set a piece of plywood on fire with the aircraft radar. Allegedly some of the newer military radars have the capability to focus their beams and shift their frequency to be able to possibly jam and/or fry electronics of a target.

(For any UK viewers) "Some say he has the ability to kill rabbits in a field, all we know is we call him the Stig!"

Oh for christ sake, what's all this rubbish about radar? Flashdance was a very bad film about a very naughty boy - exactly what relevance does any of the crap you are carrying on with have to the discussion about the taleban having microvaves modified to resemble radar? Yes, newer AESA radars can focus a beam to fry some electronics - but here is a question for you - Where is the evidence that the taleban have access to this type of technology? And what would they gain by taking down a UAV or two? They'd be destroyed before they got the third UAV.

It’s much like how some aquatic wildlife use sonar to stun or kill their prey.

Err yeah, now we are getting all cuddly with Flipper. Umm, two teensy issues with your comparison, firstly, Flipper and his mates use sound waves in a mostly incompressible medium at close ranges, we are talking about electromagnetic waves in a different medium and massively greater ranges.

Anyway I was using the microwave as a small-scale analogy to demonstrate that civilian off-the-shelf technology can be modified to be used tactically.

You watch too much Macguyver

I don’t want to get into specifics or go into great detail other than what is fairly widely known public knowledge because I don’t want to give any potential terrorists education or ideas.

I think you are significantly overstating your intelligence.

I wouldn’t -snip -.

And then you figure on giving airline pilots the benefit of your advice. No, you really should consider a career in comedy.

[SYDCBRWOD]

That's what I mean... it's a hard profession, but there's definitely a passion driving pilots to be pilots, and then there's this unexpected monotony... it's hard to reconcile. I want my pilots to be passionately involved in the monotonous part... if only because they are flying through the sky while the rest of us are stuck in some droll office job. But I suppose every thrill gets old after a while. The idea of piloting an A320 is exciting to me, but only because of the novelty involved. When it becomes routine, it becomes a job. This is probably why I got as far as the sim and then reconsidered my path in life.

I still consider piloting to be a calling that must be reserved for those who have what it takes to deal with the entire reality of the job however. I think that has to be enforced with the same rigidity as in professional sports. You start throwing outside pitches, you get bumped to the minors. The game is the game, and excuses, no matter how justified, aren't worth the lives that they might cost.

Evan, in some ways, we are getting back to the type of argument we had about the turkish airlines prange in the fields short of Schipol. Those guys too stopped flying the plane - unfortunately for them it was in a far more critical part of the flight profile - but again, they must have grown confident in and complacent with the technology. Automation has meant that apart from returning radio messaged and programming in when and where to descend, my guess is the most difficult decision the modern pilot has to face is which menu item to select for lunch. Everything else is routine or automated (OK, a bit simplistic - you get my point).

Personally, I don't believe the blokes were awake, if they were it would be a far greater dereliction of duty (almost willfully forgetting to answer calls and fly the decent) than the scenario where one was napping and the other unintentionally fell asleep.

[Evan]

Evan, in some ways, we are getting back to the type of argument we had about the turkish airlines prange in the fields short of Schipol. Those guys too stopped flying the plane - unfortunately for them it was in a far more critical part of the flight profile - but again, they must have grown confident in and complacent with the technology. Automation has meant that apart from returning radio messaged and programming in when and where to descend, my guess is the most difficult decision the modern pilot has to face is which menu item to select for lunch. Everything else is routine or automated (OK, a bit simplistic - you get my point).

It's a similar argument, but not the same one. The Turkish pilots had become complacent in terms of trusting the automation to function properly (to maintain airspeed), but they were still concentrated on navigating and communicating, whereas, these guys were taking it to the next level by neglecting to pilot the airplane at all (or possibly even to remain awake).

The Turkish Air argument was about how pilots need to always monitor their instruments and have a hand on the thrust levers—just in case—during a critical phase of flight. This argument is about how pilots need to overcome fatigue and monotony during that phase when there is no need for piloting at all, but still a distinct need for awareness.

The argument was more complex for the Turkish incident because the automation was not fault-tolerant and was actually silently working against them, and I tried to make the point that it was as much a weakness of system design as a weakness of pilot procedure. Had either weakness not been present, there would have been no incident on that day.

In this case, the weakness is only one of pilot discipline and (possibly) industry scheduling. The aircraft design shouldn't have to go so far as to wake up snoozing pilots. But then again, I'd feel safer if it did...

[Evan]

Why use a microwave jammer? Tank plinking with bombs is done using Laser Guided Bombs (LGB's) or if they are emplaced, GPS guided Small Diameter Bombs. In GW1 this is one of the jobs the F111's and their LGB's excelled at. Jammers are only effective against objects emitting electromagnetic radiation - to "jam" an LGB you need to fire a high powered laser at its seeker so it cannot see the splash from the target being painted. Good luck with doing that.

I love how off-topic this is. What is this argument even about?

[ufo]

I love how off-topic this is. What is this argument even about?

I think it's about Shadey...and yes, I miss him.

[kris]

The translation that you give does not necessarily rule out a deliberate decoy scenario. Fighter in Russian roughly translates to destroyer. So I would assume “anti-radiation missile” could roughly translate to “radio locator”.

It seems it's Serbian rather than Russian. The microwave oven-like object is clearly described as "Radio - locator found around the airport Sjenica".

The missile-shaped object fits the story about bluff and decoy - I think the text says "Decoy imitating anti-aircraft missile, found June 6th in the village of Kostajnik near Krupanj".

[SYDCBRWOD]

It's a similar argument, but not the same one. The Turkish pilots had become complacent in terms of trusting the automation to function properly (to maintain airspeed), but they were still concentrated on navigating and communicating, whereas, these guys were taking it to the next level by neglecting to pilot the airplane at all (or possibly even to remain awake).

The Turkish Air argument was about how pilots need to always monitor their instruments and have a hand on the thrust levers—just in case—during a critical phase of flight. This argument is about how pilots need to overcome fatigue and monotony during that phase when there is no need for piloting at all, but still a distinct need for awareness.

The argument was more complex for the Turkish incident because the automation was not fault-tolerant and was actually silently working against them, and I tried to make the point that it was as much a weakness of system design as a weakness of pilot procedure. Had either weakness not been present, there would have been no incident on that day.

In this case, the weakness is only one of pilot discipline and (possibly) industry scheduling. The aircraft design shouldn't have to go so far as to wake up snoozing pilots. But then again, I'd feel safer if it did...

Sitting in The Canberra Hospital's ER earlier today, a tattered magazine caught my eye: Flight Safety Australia September -October 2002. http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_asset.../sep/24-29.pdf

The attached article above was the cover story - it makes interesting reading. The astonishing piece was the bit on microsleeps done by NASA - scary stuff. Good thing there are two pilots awake for landings and takeoffs!

[Evan]

Sitting in The Canberra Hospital's ER earlier today, a tattered magazine caught my eye: Flight Safety Australia September -October 2002. http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_asset.../sep/24-29.pdf

The attached article above was the cover story - it makes interesting reading. The astonishing piece was the bit on microsleeps done by NASA - scary stuff. Good thing there are two pilots awake for landings and takeoffs!

Wow ~ great find! (I hope nothing too serious bringing you to the ER)

This confirms the reason why pilots cannot rely on cockpit warnings to awaken them in the event that something goes wrong:

State of transition: Sleep inertia is a recognised state of transition from sleep to wakefulness. New research into sleep inertia has revealed a range of effects, including:

• Impairment of performance and reaction time on tasks ranging from arithmetic, to simple motor tasks such as grip strength and finger tapping.
• Reduction in memory ability.
• Impairment of the ability to make decisions.

This should be required reading for all commercial pilots.

The Australian Civil Aviation Order (CAO) 48 “flight time limitations – general” seem pretty reasonable to me. How do they differ from the US Domestic scheduling guidelines?