Pilots Nodded Off Before Landing?

[TeeVee]

Yes.

then i imagine if these two idiots had half a brain between them, one of them "pushed the button"

[SYDCBRWOD]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8321748.stm

so the BBC reported that two fighter jets were put on alert.

tell me something, how often to domestic flights have to check in verbally or otherwise? i mean, seriously! where is the level orange/yellow/red/whatever post-9/11 security if we allow a flight to continue to fly after it fails to check in as required???

I think you'd find if the aircraft suddenly altered course/altitude away from a planned flightpath AND didn't respond to the radio calls the alert birds would have been in the air. Or if there was no response for a much longer period and the aircraft was approaching bingo fuel. If memory serves me an F-15 can be at 50,000 feet in something like two minutes - so they probably just put the pilots in the cockpits and had 'em ready to roll.

Saved you taxpayers a dollar or two.

[ATFS_Crash]

Pilots names identified in police reports.

The report said the pilots, who were interviewed by airport police and the FBI when the plane landed, volunteered for a preliminary breath test for alcohol, and the test results were negative.

I'm not going to post the names but I will post the link.

Source and full story.

http://www.startribune.com/local/65778012.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aU1yDEmP:QMDCinchO7DU

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8321748.stm

so the BBC reported that two fighter jets were put on alert.

tell me something, how often to domestic flights have to check in verbally or otherwise? i mean, seriously! where is the level orange/yellow/red/whatever post-9/11 security if we allow a flight to continue to fly after it fails to check in as required???

Allegedly there was more than two planes put on alert. The article that I posted before suggested that there were fighters at two locations on alert; and getting ready to scramble, they stood down when there was communications with the airliner. From the wording of the article I think there was probably four or more planes ready to scramble to intercept the airliner.

[TeeVee]

I think you'd find if the aircraft suddenly altered course/altitude away from a planned flightpath AND didn't respond to the radio calls the alert birds would have been in the air. Or if there was no response for a much longer period and the aircraft was approaching bingo fuel. If memory serves me an F-15 can be at 50,000 feet in something like two minutes - so they probably just put the pilots in the cockpits and had 'em ready to roll.

Saved you taxpayers a dollar or two.

perhaps you are correct. i would err on the side of being more cautious and would have sent the jocks up after 20 minutes of NORDO (thanks Gabe!).

[Deadstick]

Here's my question. If the aircraft is programmeed to fly to a destination with whatever navigation equipment is on board, once it reaches said programmed destination, what does it do given no change to its program? Should it not overshoot and attempt to return? I assume GPS was programmed, so when the aircraft runs past, does it disengage or attempt to seek the GPS coordinates it has in its system? If it gets to programmed destination, does it do like a car GPS and says, "OK we're here" then stop? Does the autopilot maintain altitude and heading at that point?

My bet is we had nappy time in the front seats. It's going to be very convenient for these guys that the CVR only had a 30 minute recording time, but where and when did they put their "heated discussion" defense together? These guys won't be driving this kind of bus again.

[ATFS_Crash]

Here's my question. If the aircraft is programmeed to fly to a destination with whatever navigation equipment is on board, once it reaches said programmed destination, what does it do given no change to its program? Should it not overshoot and attempt to return? I assume GPS was programmed, so when the aircraft runs past, does it disengage or attempt to seek the GPS coordinates it has in its system? If it gets to programmed destination, does it do like a car GPS and says, "OK we're here" then stop? Does the autopilot maintain altitude and heading at that point?

I think it depends on the navigation system or perhaps how the pilot programs the autopilot.

Judging by the flight path in this case the aircraft seems to have simply flown to the last waypoint and then continued the same heading and altitude.

Evidently the 777 Helios Airways Flight 522 operates or was programmed differently as it flew to the last waypoint and circled.

Perhaps after the Helios Airways Flight 522 mishap they decided to change the programming so an incapacitated crew wouldn't be as likely to result in a crash into a heavily populated area after circling an airport of running out of fuel? Circling the last waypoint at an airport increases the odds of a crash into a heavily populated area.

[CotterPin]

There's only one explanation for this, pure and simple: they were asleep at the wheel.

It's impossible, utterly impossible, to come to any other logical solution. Keep in mind, the key word I'm using is: "logical."

There is no other logic(al) solution anyone can possibly come to, beyond these two sorry saps dozing off.

Are they criminals? Maybe. Are they piloting an aircraft within the confines of a broken system that pushes pilots to the very height of human endurance? Maybe.

Will this situation finally cause real change within FAA regulations? Doubtful, but it's a start.

Again, there's absolutely no way these pilots lost their awareness for 150nm, and if they did, they should most certainly be criminally charged, and they most certainly will be, as this is no laughing matter. But, that's OBVIOUSLY not what happened here.

Pilots are ethical beings, well aware of the responsibilities they undertake each time they enter the cockpit, and I'm sure they'll find it within themselves to do the right thing and admit to their errors. In this case, their errors will most likely end their careers, at least in this context and in this country, but at least they're still alive to tell the tale as are their PAX.

What a mess...

[ATFS_Crash]

One of the two pilots, first officer Richard I. Cole, said that wasn't the case. He also said an argument wasn't to blame.

"All I'm saying is we were not asleep; we were not having a fight; there was nothing serious going on in the cockpit that would threaten the people in the back at all," he told The Associated Press in an interview at his home in Salem, Ore.

He declined to discuss what exactly happened but did insist "it was not a serious event, from a safety issue."

"I can't go into it, but it was innocuous."

Source and full story

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jx2fJRl2HA8EkI9Zi8Qa1yuvjYdQD9BH73O00

Very strange. I hate to speculate because I'm coming up with some very weird ideas. Even weirder than normal. haha

1) It may be a staged media stunt; to possibly bring attention or advocate rest periods for pilots.

2) Obama has crashed the the US economy so bad that they were defecting to Canada.

3) They were having hanky-panky.

(Okay I'm joking mostly)

[TeeVee]

I tend to agree that these pilots will probably come clean. There's no advantage to sticking to their version of events, is there? And since the whole world knows they're lying, they might as well remove that stigma at least.

no advantage? how about possibly keeping their jobs and/or licenses. if they erased the cvr and they stick to their story they might just skate.

[CotterPin]

no advantage? how about possibly keeping their jobs and/or licenses. if they erased the cvr and they stick to their story they might just skate.

There's absolutely no way these guys will just skate, even in a best case scenario, they're gone, at least from their current company and almost certainly with multiple write-ups from the FAA. These guys, at best, are going to be flying cargo, after complete recerts. (at best).

For the sake of argument, let's paint an obviously false scenario: they, the pilots, BOTH completely lost all situational awareness, and they were wide- awake engrossed in chat about their stock portfolios, etc. Is that scene any better than falling asleep at the wheel, or the stick, for that matter?

Quite simply, no. These guys are toast, and rightly so. I stand by the fact that they're victims of a system that requires overhauling, but that by no means excuses the fact that they most certainly did put their PAX in danger.

They'll come clean, and the facts are going to be quite obvious, flight recorder or not. They're not the first to come close to screwing the pooch in this manner, and they certainly won't be the last.

Flight crews are humans, prone to failure, and in this case, prone to falling asleep. Luckily, in this event, they were eventually awoken.

[Gabriel]

no advantage? how about possibly keeping their jobs and/or licenses. if they erased the cvr and they stick to their story they might just skate.

If they erased the CVR they are going to be charged with intentionally destroying evidence. They are not allowed to erase the CVR after an accident.

Their best stake is that it was an old CVR that kept only the last 1/2 hour, during which they were awake. So there would be no evidence of they sleeping. Even better would be if the FDR recorded some input during th suspect time.

But for me, they are guilty of taking a nap at the controls until proven not-guilty.

(there was as similar case over Hawaii, perahps about 1 year ago)

[MCM]

If they erased the CVR they are going to be charged with intentionally destroying evidence. They are not allowed to erase the CVR after an accident.

At what point did they have an accident?

Did something happen? Yes. Do we know what it was? No. If you'd been involved in an incident, would you tell the media the truth? I wouldn't say anything.

The NTSB will release findings at an appropriate time if it is investigated.

As to what the aircraft will do... it will depend on how it is programmed at the time, essentially if there is a holding pattern at the last leg (often the case after an instrument approach, but not always), or if there was not, in which case it will continue ahead.

[Gabriel]

If they erased the CVR they are going to be charged with intentionally destroying evidence. They are not allowed to erase the CVR after an accident.

At what point did they have an accident?

Did something happen? Yes. Do we know what it was? No.

Sorry. I meant to say incident, not accident. They are not allowed to erese the CVR after an incident. And I'm pretty sure a plane failing to answer to ATC for 1 hour and 20 minutes and overflying its destination for 150 miles will qualify as an incident, regardless of what actauly happened aboard the plane.

[ATFS_Crash]

Sorry. I meant to say incident, not accident. They are not allowed to erese the CVR after an incident. And I'm pretty sure a plane failing to answer to ATC for 1 hour and 20 minutes and overflying its destination for 150 miles will qualify as an incident, regardless of what actauly happened aboard the plane.

Concur. Though you may have used the wrong word, it seems fairly clear to me what your intent was. I'm not sure exactly what the laws are but for the most part I know what's right and what the laws should be.

A substantial unauthorized deviation from the flight plan I would think would be a violation of regulation and/or law; so I would think that erasing a voice or data recorder right after an incident would be some sort of crime. IE Obstruction of justice, Interfering with an investigation, Interfering with police business, destruction of evidence. With all the local, state and federal laws and regulations I would think that erasing the recordings after such an incident would be a violation of some sort of law. If it's not it should be.

I question the wisdom that the crew has the ability to erase the tapes; I would hope that ability would be limited to reconnaissance or military aircraft on special missions.

[mzk49o1]

Source and full story

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jx2fJRl2HA8EkI9Zi8Qa1yuvjYdQD9BH73O00

Very strange. I hate to speculate because I'm coming up with some very weird ideas. Even weirder than normal. haha

1) It may be a staged media stunt; to possibly bring attention or advocate rest periods for pilots.

2) Obama has crashed the the US economy so bad that they were defecting to Canada.

3) They were having hanky-panky.

(Okay I'm joking mostly)

4) Or something like this: