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Polish President and wife killed in Tu-154 crash

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  • #76
    Thank you sir!

    I have the highest respect for the victims and victim families. This is a tragedy that will remain for a while and I just hope that it does not divide Russians and Poles further.

    As of the airplane itself. I'm tired of hearing on TV and Radio from so called experts that the plane was Russian and it was poorly made. I'm not Russian at all, but let's be real about this. At the time the Tupolevs were made I think the were designed and built pretty well. In-fact I think Tupolevs might be like AK-47's. Rugged and Built tough. Most of the crashes of Tupolevs could be attributed to the fact that most of those planes were flown by third world countries with very little to none requirements for safety in terms of routine maintenance and most likely skipped them.

    Should we blame McDonnell Douglas for crashes because Air Alaska did not maintain good fleet or because some poor bastard at the airline decided to cut corners because of pressure to get the planes up and ready ASAP.

    Let me remind everyone that everyone is almost certain 99.9% that the plane did not malfunction at all. It seems to be a combination of poor weather and bad crew judgment.

    I found an interesting article with Col. Tomasz Pietrzak. As it turns out he did not fly on the August 2008 trip to Tsbilisi so Olii was wrong. The article is in Polish, but I'll translate some of it. It was an interview that he gave when he retired due to poor fleet of polish VIP's planes and not just TU-154

    Here is some more info on TU-154 that the President flew.

    Tu-154M side number 101 has been specially produced for the Poland on 29 June 1990, delivered to the Poland on July 12 that same year. Aircraft for the entire period of his service was operated by the 36th Special Aviation Regiment operating from the military part of the Okecie Airport. Tu-154M in 2009, underwent a full restructuring coupled with the limited modernization, was equipped with modern navigation systems to allow for landing without visual runway visibility as the ILS (Instrument Landing System).



    This is TU-154 landing in Prague, 2 days prior to the accident.

    Comment


    • #77
      How in the world can people be asking if this will cause a rift between Russia and Poland over this incident?

      Unless evidence emerges that Russia generated the fog, then shifted a hillside with mature trees onto where the runway was I cannot see that this incident is in any way Russia's fault. They did their best from an ATC point of view to keep the aircraft safe. If anything the Poles would and should be feeling regretful at the inconvenience and expense this stupid act has caused to the Russian authorities (emergency services, securing the crash site, costs of the investigation and cleanup etc).

      If anything this should draw the two countries closer in grief, not cause a rift.

      Comment


      • #78
        Here is an article with Col. Tomasz Pietrzak. The article is in polish, however I will translate this for everyone here. The article was in regards to the Flight to Tbilisi and the reason Col. Pietrzak is retiring. He gives an interesting perspective on the Polish VIP fleet and the flight in 2008.

        Wiadomości z kraju i ze świata. Wiadomości gospodarcze. Znajdziesz u nas informacje, wydarzenia, komentarze, opinie. Serwis dla kobiet, rozrywka, auto, pogoda.





        Why did the pilot refused the President?


        » Dlaczego pilot odmówił prezydentowi Zamknij X



        fot. Forum / Adam Chełstowski



        Pilot, who refused the order from Lech Kaczynski, to land in Tbilisi, does not have to worry about disciplinary action. His Commanding officers state he did the right thing landing in Azerbaijan, where there was no fighting. "We did not have diplomatic agreement to land in Tbilisi, we did not know who is in charge of the air and in what shape is the landing strip and the airport" - stated Col. Tomasz Pietrzak, former commander of the 36th Special Aviation Regiment.



        Izabela Leszczyńska: You no longer want to command the 36th. Special Aviation Regiment, which transports to most important people in Poland. Are you taking your uniform as a sign of protest?


        Tomasz Pietrzak: I'm leaving because as of today there is still no decision for purchasing planes and helicopters for the VIPs. My patience ended. Time came for those who have more patience than me. From 2003 I have sat in on 3 negotiations to purchase new planes. Since Negotiations have always ended without agreements this is a waste of time and energy.

        In what shape is the VIP fleet in now?
        Good Shape. There is a lot of technicians who put in a lot of time making sure its stays that way. However because of fleet's age it requires replacing those were my signals. I'm leaving because my signals for replacing the fleet have been ignored.

        On the day you transferred the command to the new Commander of the regiment you stated that, "We need an immediate decision so that we can spare cries and sorrow". What did you mean?
        The helicopter M-I8 with the Premier Miller already crashed...



        What can the VIPs fly with now?
        Regiment has two tupolevs and only two planes Jak-40, because two others are in repairs in Belarus. In addition we still have two helicopters: Bell 412 and W-3 Eagle.

        I've heard that the Tupolevs are supposed to be grounded, if in the next 2 years they will not be overhauled.

        That is correct, that is why in November one of them will be sent for the technical overview to Moscow. Also in April of 2009 it will be sent there again for complete overhaul which will take 180 days. During the overhall a lot of components will be replaces such as insides, communication and engines will be replaced for new if needed.

        So for almost half a year this plane will not be in the country?
        Yes. When it comes back we will send the 2nd Tupolev.


        So in April if the President flies to Vilinius and Premier to Brussels, one of them will not fly the Tupolev, is that correct?
        One of them be flying.


        Who will fly then?
        President, since he is the head of state.

        Premier then can fly one of the JAKs?

        He could.

        How does the polish VIP fleet compare to fleets in other countries?
        I'm going to compare our fleet with the countries similar to Poland. We have the oldest fleet of all. Czech republic has Airbuses, Germany, France and Spain also has Airbuses as well.


        Do it often happen that the President or Premier cannot fly because there are repairs done to the planes?
        Sometimes. For examples at the end of March Minister Anna Fotyga was in Paris for Consultation. Premier had to charter a plane from company CentralWings so he could travel To Kiev.


        Everyone now knows the story about the Presidential trip to Georgia, when the pilot refused to land in Tbilisi. Lech Kaczynski barged into the cockpit and ordered the pilot to land in Georgia. Pilot told him he had other orders. The president yelled: And Who is the Commander in Chief???
        The trip was planned in Poland. The trip was Warsaw - Symferopol, Ukraine - and then landig in Gance, Azerbeijan. Rest I'm not going to comment on.

        The pilot was going to refuse the president only after speaking with his Commanding officer which is you. Why didn't he land in Georgia.
        Georgia was in the state of war. We did not know who is in charge of the air, in what shape was the landing strip or the airport and more importantly we did not have permission to land there.

        How long would it take to get the permission?
        It depends on the country. Sometimes five to seven days prior.

        How about if the trip is unplanned and immediate?
        We could get the permission in few hours, however not in the area plagued by war. During the state of war we would not fly in without planning

        So theoratically none of the VIPs should fly to Afghanistan or Iraq?
        In those countries there is a different situation. In Iraq the Americans are in charge of the air, In Afghanistan it is the ISAF. We discuss all flights with them. In Georgia there was a conflict and we did not know who was in charge at that time.

        The pilots state that after the landing in Azerbeijan the President threatened the pilot. President told him: This is not over yet. Is there any disciplinary action taken?

        None is being taken or looked into.

        According to you his Commanding Officer did the Pilot make the right decision.
        Yes and it was the only decision. If he would attempt to land in Georgia he would break orders that he received. Also he would face a Court Marital for putting the President in Danger.

        September 3rd, 2008

        Comment


        • #79
          SYDC,

          I agree with you on this. This should not divide the countries. However sometimes people do not know the poles. There are a lot of poles that were born in late 30's, 40's and 50's that to this date still hold a grudge towards the Russians. By Polish president dying there they will still hold those grudges and even worse. Trust me. These are the same people who protest nuclear power, protest foreign companies from flourishing in Poland even though it will help Poland and really drive the Poland into a direction of being a Catholic State rather than a great nation.

          Now, however I'm getting into the political area so I will stop before someone does take offense.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by Curtis Malone View Post
            I certainly hope it's the PIC, you can't run a ship by committee.
            Well, apparently you can...

            Originally posted by NYTimes
            Lech Walesa, the former Polish president, told the newspaper Gazeta Wyborcza over the weekend that in these situations, the captain often sought the views of the government leaders on the plane.

            “If there were any doubts, the leaders were always approached and asked for their decision, and only on this basis were further steps taken,” he said. “Sometimes the plane captain would make the decision himself, even against the recommendations. We do not yet know what happened, so let’s leave the explaining to the experts.”
            It seems Mr. Kaczynski was a bit of a diva with the pilots, and if he insisted on continuing with this approach, his stubbornness got them all killed.

            In August 2008, during Russia’s brief war with Georgia, Mr. Kaczynski got into a dispute with a pilot flying his plane to the Georgian capital, Tbilisi, according to reports at the time. Mr. Kaczynski demanded that the pilot land despite dangerous conditions, but the pilot disagreed and diverted to neighboring Azerbaijan.

            Mr. Kaczynski threatened that there would be consequences for the pilot, the Polish newspaper Dziennik reported. “If someone decides to become a pilot, he cannot be fearful,” Mr. Kaczynski said.
            What an idiotic thing to say.

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by MarcinL7788 View Post
              SYDC,

              I agree with you on this. This should not divide the countries. However sometimes people do not know the poles. There are a lot of poles that were born in late 30's, 40's and 50's that to this date still hold a grudge towards the Russians.
              And rightly so. They also have reason to hold a grudge against the English (and the rest of the allies), the Germans for the way the poles were treated during WWII and the Russians for what happened before during and after WWII.

              But any rational person would see that this had nothing to do with the Russians - unless you chose irrationally to say that if the Russians hadn't slaughtered 21,000 poles in 1940 - there would be no need for a flight that ended this way. But seriously, if you were to these irrational lengths to blame the Russians, the ultimate blame should be laid at the feet of Adam for biting the apple and starting the whole human race as we know it today

              Originally posted by MarcinL7788 View Post
              By Polish president dying there they will still hold those grudges and even worse. Trust me. .
              Then people need to speak up and tell the one eyed russian haters to pull their heads in. This was wholly a Polish error as unfortunate as that may be.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Crunk415balla View Post
                Why so many essential countrymen were put on one plane, I'll never understand. Terrible tragedy, for sure a worst case scenario.
                If it were wartime this would not occur. From a military perspective, I know that whenever we moved as a formation in Blackhawks, the command group would be scattered throughout the airframes - so if one chopper went down it would not take all the command group with it. I'm fairly sure the US VP and President travel separately at all times for similar reasons. However, not all countries have the luxury of flying two or more different airframes to one location.

                This is not just an issue of heads of state - there are at least two occasions I can think of where a nation has lost all or most of a national sporting team because of the loss of one airframe. This can be gotten around by obviously booking the teams on different flights but that would create an administrational nightmare as well as ruining the espirit de corps of the team. Who knows - maybe David Boon would not have set his long standing record of 52 cans of beer in flight from London to Sydney if not for the support of his team-mates.

                http://sportzfun.com/contests/boonie.htm (Onya Boonie!)

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally Posted by Crunk415balla
                  Why so many essential countrymen were put on one plane, I'll never understand. Terrible tragedy, for sure a worst case scenario.
                  Poland only has two Tu-154 and I believe the other one is in repairs. Also although it seems like a lot of people from government died we also forget that its not that unusual. I mean Air Force One routinely carries the President, White House Personell, High Ranking Joints Chiefs of Staff and even Senators or Congressman. The only protocol that I'm aware of is that VP Cannot fly on the same plane. Also if President and VP is flying somewhere the Speaker of The House cannot be in flight and has to be in secure location until the President and VP is no longer in flight.

                  Also the President of Poland is not the Head of the Government. President of Poland is the Chief of State. As a matter of fact he was not even invited to the Katyn Massacre anniversary memorial. The invitation was properly sent to the Head of Government which is Donald Tusk. The Head of Government then decided to sent the Chief of State which is the President of Poland.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Polish media is stating that there were no 4 attempts to land. The plane circled the airport 3 times to get familiar with the topography and pilots tried to assess the situation and then attempted the landing. The pilots stated that in case it does not work out they will divert.

                    The russian control tower told them not to try, however the pilots were eager to land and stated that few times.

                    Looks like the plane first hit the antenna about 1km away from the airport and started breaking apart. few seconds later it hit the trees. The pilots tried to pull up, however at that time it was too late and the plane crashed few hundred meters away from the strip. According to the russians the plane was on course with the strip and not 150m to the left of it. They stated that the reason that it might look like he was of course is that in last few seconds as the pilots pulled up they veered left.

                    The Control tower also state that pilots were quiet during their approach and never verified their speed, height and distance like they supposed to during landing. According to the Controllers polish pilots had trouble with Russian. They were speaking well, however they seemed to have trouble with the numbers and this is perhaps why the pilots just went quiet during the approach and although spoke briefly, never verified their height and distance which could have been crucial.

                    The russians also state that the examinations of black boxes just begun. They did not want to open the black boxes and waited for the specialists from Poland to arrive before they opened them up to ensure that nothing is touched and maintain integirty of the investigation.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Olii View Post
                      MarcinL7788 please , stop forum spam. Why you write lies in all air forums ? Why you today make acc in more air forums ? This guy , its no jet , air expert. Its only anti-president fraction representative. Agresive spam its popular in this political fraction.

                      In Georgia air incident , its only small problem president vs captain.
                      Small problem? What kind do you actually mean?


                      Actually it's you who appears to try gaining political grounds by already using the "don't trample on the heritage" argument to conceal the truth...

                      m.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by MarcinL7788 View Post
                        Polish media is stating that there were no 4 attempts to land. The plane circled the airport 3 times to get familiar with the topography and pilots tried to assess the situation and then attempted the landing. The pilots stated that in case it does not work out they will divert.

                        The russian control tower told them not to try, however the pilots were eager to land and stated that few times.

                        Looks like the plane first hit the antenna about 1km away from the airport and started breaking apart. few seconds later it hit the trees. The pilots tried to pull up, however at that time it was too late and the plane crashed few hundred meters away from the strip. According to the russians the plane was on course with the strip and not 150m to the left of it. They stated that the reason that it might look like he was of course is that in last few seconds as the pilots pulled up they veered left.

                        The Control tower also state that pilots were quiet during their approach and never verified their speed, height and distance like they supposed to during landing. According to the Controllers polish pilots had trouble with Russian. They were speaking well, however they seemed to have trouble with the numbers and this is perhaps why the pilots just went quiet during the approach and although spoke briefly, never verified their height and distance which could have been crucial.

                        The russians also state that the examinations of black boxes just begun. They did not want to open the black boxes and waited for the specialists from Poland to arrive before they opened them up to ensure that nothing is touched and maintain integirty of the investigation.
                        Marcin, thanks for your in-depth input, translations and background info. This has proven extremely useful for this topic so far. I am afraid indeed that a potential misunderstanding between ATC/tower and plane during the final approach may have substantially contributed to what happened. I also believe that this Tu-154M was in a very good shape.

                        On a different note, it is refreshing to see the very constructive approach the Russian officials have taken towards the whole situation, including ie. the investigation.

                        Just to acknowledge one more thing Marcin alluded to above. Not being Polish (like myself , although I live here for quite a while and my wife is) it is very difficult to grasp the full scope of the Polish-Russian history and relationships. As it is equally difficult to understand ie. the Northern Ireland situation unless you really live it. Not that the two situations have much in common, but I hope you understand what I mean.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Seems like everyone has decided to make the pilots the fall guys. Were they really at fault? Hey, considering what a free government (allegedly) like our own can do, I woulldn't hesitate to say Russia and Poland can do it. I dare anyone to say they think this matter is really settled. The final word will almost certainly be that of the governments, which are about as trustworthy as our own.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by EconomyClass View Post
                            Seems like everyone has decided to make the pilots the fall guys. Were they really at fault? Hey, considering what a free government (allegedly) like our own can do, I woulldn't hesitate to say Russia and Poland can do it. I dare anyone to say they think this matter is really settled. The final word will almost certainly be that of the governments, which are about as trustworthy as our own.
                            Well, the facts as they appear to be...

                            -Weather was below minima for a non ILS approach and certainly below minima for a VFR approach.

                            -The pilots were strongly advised by ATC to divert. If I remember correctly an ATC controller cannot actually TELL a pilot not to attempt a landing.

                            -PIC is responsible for the safety of the aircraft and its passengers. No-one else can override that responsibility, especially considering that this was essentially a civilian flight (albeit in a military aircraft ) and not a military flight operating under combat conditions where a senior officer might order a pilot to do something unsafe.

                            -The aircraft was below proper approach altitude which is why it clipped the trees. I don't know what avionics and navigation equipment the aircraft was fitted with but surely it included GPS and altitude alerters ?

                            Sorry, but it's pilot error for me.

                            EDIT...A 2008 image but it looks to be fairly well equipped ?

                            [photoid=6398980]
                            Last edited by brianw999; 2010-04-12, 17:25.
                            If it 'ain't broken........ Don't try to mend it !

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by brianw999 View Post
                              -PIC is responsible for the safety of the aircraft and its passengers. No-one else can override that responsibility...
                              That is technically correct and fundamentally incorrect. The reality is, if a coterie of senior officials on board that plane insists on attempting to land, that PIC is going to have to chose between his job and his better judgment. For the PIC, the only win is to land successfully. It's a terrible position to be put in, but Mr. Kaczynski had a way with losing his temper and placing foolish, risky demands on his pilots.

                              I won't be one bit surprised to learn that this was the case. I also won't be one bit surprised to learn that the CVR tape was unrecoverable.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                R.i.p

                                First of all I just want to say it is truly a sad day for Polish people in Poland and around the world. They lost a wonderful President and good people and I hope they will realize that now. R.I.P may god take him and all the people that perished in too his arms, and keep Poland safe!

                                Now we all are speculating and questioning, why, how, what could have been. I personally hope it was a freak of nature accident and not sabotage on Poland. Right now we are just getting reports from Russian government officials, they are saying what is going on and automatically blaming every thing on the crew. We don’t know that until the black boxes will be analyzed. There are two sides in every story and the Polish investigators are working on them now. We know that the Polish Air Force one is older but it’s not bad it had good avionics and it just came out of Tupolev inspection/repair shop. We also know that TU-154M has a better safety record then B727 (google it) So to me it looks like the plane came in for a landing in bad weather while taking a 45 degree turn and they clipped the tree tops and crashed. Russia is controlling all the media at this point and all the video recordings. We will know soon what really has happened. Also I heard that they found a third black box and there are 9 more body’s underneath the bigger parts of the plane. This is just too upsetting and Sad.
                                Last edited by justLOT787; 2010-04-12, 18:41. Reason: computer problems

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