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  • I would rather be arrested

    Airline passengers who spent 11 hours stuck on the tarmac at John F. Kennedy International Airport were unloaded Tuesday afternoon in the latest example of the frustrating effects of a massive blizzard that delayed thousands of would-be holiday travelers.


    honestly, i would start an unarmed revolution on board. they would have to sedate me and as many other passengers i could muster to my side to get me to stop. no gates? deplane on tarmac. no airstairs? blow the slides. no buses to the terminal? walk. no space in terminal? total bullshit. let them sit in a hallway.

    and WTF is this crap about refusing to allow even the police to bring food and water? has america completely lost what little bit of decency it had?

    once again, i don't give a rat's ass who is to blame. this kinda crap has got to stop.

  • #2
    U.S.Customs went home at 1 am. It's that simple.

    "At no point were Customs officials sent home," spokesman John Saleh said. He is correct, no U.S. Customs Agent was sent home, however 1 am is the end of the shift and they went home even though they knew international flights were arriving.
    Flying is the second greatest thrill known to man. Landing is first.

    Comment


    • #3
      I hope you re-read the post I wrote about having a duty to care to passengers, and that being on an aircraft, in a seat, with lavatory facilities and adequate food and water (if not enough to keep you completely satisfied) and an acceptable temperature is sometimes the best option.

      You CANNOT blame the airlines for this. It has nothing to do with them. If you want to blame anyone, blame the port authority for not providing adequate customs officials and space in arrivals halls.

      The comment that "There is not enough space" is entirely valid btw. Do you think most passengers would rather spend 11 hours sitting in a seat with IFE, water, food and a nice temperature, or crammed (so that you are touched on each side by another passenger) in an arrivals area with no seating, no water, and no toilets?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by MCM View Post
        I hope you re-read the post I wrote about having a duty to care to passengers, and that being on an aircraft, in a seat, with lavatory facilities and adequate food and water (if not enough to keep you completely satisfied) and an acceptable temperature is sometimes the best option.

        You CANNOT blame the airlines for this. It has nothing to do with them. If you want to blame anyone, blame the port authority for not providing adequate customs officials and space in arrivals halls.

        The comment that "There is not enough space" is entirely valid btw. Do you think most passengers would rather spend 11 hours sitting in a seat with IFE, water, food and a nice temperature, or crammed (so that you are touched on each side by another passenger) in an arrivals area with no seating, no water, and no toilets?
        actually, MCM, they very well may be. apparently, the airline failed to make sure that a gate would be available prior to departing for JFK. so PA is poitning fingers at them. there are always customs people at JFK 24/7/365. don't believe anything to the contrary.

        and your idea of 11 in an airline seat with ife being preferred to being in arrivals hall is a bit misguided. did you miss the part that said there was no food and the powers that be, whoever that may be, refused to allow even the police to bring food out to the plane?

        this is shit. plain and simple. it keeps happening and nothing gets done. now the "new rules" dont apply to international flights? what kind of lame loophole is that?!?! the largest aircraft carrying the greatest numbers of pax are exempt? oh yeah, that makes sense.

        finger pointing...it's the airline! no, it's customs! no it's the PA!, no it's the weather! all BS! when a plane inadvertently runs off of a taxiway and someone's precious jet is in danger, they some-friggin-how manage to deplane hundreds? of pax on a taxiway in a snowstorm, and guess what? no one got hurt and no one complained.

        when there's a will, there's a way. the REAL problem is, people do not want to work: PA officials don't want the hassle of figuring out how to cordon off an area, customs officials don't want to post a few officers to watch over folks, airlines do not want to spend more than they have to, ATC doesn't want be blamed for causing congestion problems. and who pays? pax.

        i wonder why this doesn't happen in europe? er, ummm maybe it has something to do with HUGE fines that get assessed when this crap happens over there. or maybe, just maybe, they care a bit more about people's rights...

        america has gone to hell...

        Comment


        • #5
          I think every stakeholder here shares the responsibilities. The system did not fail because one part broke. It failed because everyone did something wrong.

          Also, there are actually more flights stranded with passengers on planes over 8 hrs than reported. And they are all international flights. There are actually 29 international flights stranded for more than 3 hrs.

          First, it is indeed the airlines' responsibilities to make sure there is a gate, and they didn't. However, you have to remember that in airports outside of US, the airlines are not the ones to check proactively for gate availability. The service is provided by the operators of the airports generally, so flight dispatch of international carriers may not be that familiar with the procedure in US.

          Second, no domestic flights were stranded that long because there are more flexibility in terms of where to disembark passengers, and due to the 3-hr limit of stranding passengers on board, airlines simply cancel flights when they think there is even a possibility there planes will be stranded in the middle of the trip. That is why airlines simply cancel all their flights in NYC this time and in Europe last week, instead of making a gamble to fly (which, sometimes do pay off and result in very happy passengers). So before you say there should be more regulation, think again. Because there are consequences that you probably have not thought about, LHR and JFK becoming a huge camping ground for a much longer period of time than previous occassions of snowstorms being one of the unintended consequences.

          Third, while customs is staffed 7/24 indeed, it is only staffed by a skeleton staff at night (which turns out to be less than 3 officers), which is totally inadequate to handle the incresaed incoming international traffic following such a snowstorm. What I don't understand is why. Those few days were not normal days and US Customs are staffing their posts like any other days. It seems that American and European airports are not very flexible in dealing with these situations. At the end of the snowstorm in Europe, LHR operations were only extended from 12am to 1am "in order to accommodate extra flights". And it seems that US Customs at JFK was the same this week. They did not extend their hours at all in the face of such emergency. I remember that at TPE or HKG or NRT, when they get hit by snowstorm (for NRT only) or typhoon, which result in massive flight cancellation, they would run the airport with full force, with full staffing and full capabilities of operation, for as long as required, even if it means flights taking off and landing every 2 minutes at 3am, so be it. And usually camping passengers are cleared within a day or so, instead of taking a week in the case of LHR and JFK.

          Last, the airport operator should be co-ordinating the recovery effort. Even though co-ordination of gates and Customs staffing is not part of their job normally, they have the visibilities of the full picture all the time, thus during unusual times like this in JFK, PA should formally take over such co-ordinating effort. Obviously this was never in the plan of PA, and this has never been practiced and thought about by PA's management, so they either did not step up at all, or the "stepping up" is at a tactical level on an ad-hoc basis. With no official co-ordinator, the attempt of a smooth recovery of operation is bound to fail. And personally, I think the smooth recovery of operation of an airport is solely the responsibility (and to the benefit) of the airport operator (i.e. Port Authority) and they have failed this.

          By the way, it seems that, it is possible that, at least part of the blame lies with the snow removal effort of the city itself. It is reported that there might have been a deliberate slow-down in removal of snow in the city by the workers to demonstrate their displeasure of city budget cut. And "(direct quote from CNN) the slow cleanup effort hampered morning commuters, delayed first responders and even prevented aircraft service personnel from reaching airports where 29 international flights were stuck on the tarmac for more than three hours, officials said" ( see http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/12/30/new...ex.html?hpt=T2). Now this is going to be interesting.
          Next:
          None Planned

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          • #6
            finger pointing...it's the airline! no, it's customs! no it's the PA!, no it's the weather! all BS! when a plane inadvertently runs off of a taxiway and someone's precious jet is in danger, they some-friggin-how manage to deplane hundreds? of pax on a taxiway in a snowstorm, and guess what? no one got hurt and no one complained.
            For the last time before I give up - you're comparing apples and oranges.

            You are comparing ONE aircraft needing deplaning in a FULLY OPERATIONAL airport, to TENS of aircraft needing it in a closed airport that is fully loaded with aircraft! You just can't compare the scenarios! If you do, you have completely closed your mind and don't care about reality. Thats fine, if you want to just blame willy nilly. But it wont' help.

            actually, MCM, they very well may be. apparently, the airline failed to make sure that a gate would be available prior to departing for JFK. so PA is poitning fingers at them. there are always customs people at JFK 24/7/365. don't believe anything to the contrary.
            There are a skeleton staff in ONE TERMINAL ONLY.

            With a FULL staff, for all international arrivals, it takes about an hour to process ONE aircraft. Customs staffing is customs responsibility, not the airlines.

            I share your view that America has a lot to do with it - but it is certainly not confined to there. It is evident at any air field that runs at capacity, and a lot of USA airfields do.

            Yes, you can solve the problem. Reduce the capacity to 50% of its current. Then you'll have excess capacity to solve the problem. Unless you do that, you've got no chance.

            Comment


            • #7
              sorry my friend, i ain't buying your argument. and i'm not talking about one plane, and don't really care how many planes need deplaning. for chrissakes! you have knowledge of inbound aircraft, you have knowledge that you are running at minimum capacity as far as gates are concerned yet you continue to board aircraft??? what's more important? boarding aircraft or deplaning folks that have already spent 15 bloody hours couped up in an aluminum tube?

              i'm not missing any of your points. someone please tell me where this has happened outside of the US cuz i missed it (aside from one occurrence at LHR last week). and it ain't limited to intl flights either...remember the continental commuter? not too long ago? remember Jet "blew" last year? this happens ALL THE DAMN TIME here.

              last night i had dinner with an AA flight attendant, and this subject came up cuz she got stuck once. they know more about this than i do for sure and she was of the opinion that something could have been done to avoid her entrapment. JFK is an absolutely huge airport. there are ways of cordoning off areas to keep people corralled and to avoid--oh heaven forbid!!!--someone sneaking by customs. but no, the mentality of what is fast becoming my embarrassing country is that screw the folks on the plane, to help them will be to much like work.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                actually, MCM, they very well may be. apparently, the airline failed to make sure that a gate would be available prior to departing for JFK. so PA is poitning fingers at them. there are always customs people at JFK 24/7/365. don't believe anything to the contrary.
                You're not entirely incorrect, but neither are you quite spot on. ICE people are JFK 24/7, yes, but not necessarily at arrival checkpoints. You could make the argument that ICE leadership at JFK could have forced everybody to stay and work overtime (24hrs straigth? 48?), but I don't know what they would have entailed.

                As for the gate situation, how many times do you reckon that might change in the time it takes a 744 to go from, say, ICN to JFK? We're not dealing with a static environment here, it was (and still is) a very dynamic situation.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Curtis, you are correct. and i'll tell you how BCIS could've handled it...the same way every other uniformed service handles situations like this: mandatory overtime. i spent 14 years as a paramedic in NYC. in 1996, during a winter storm that dumped more snow on the city than this last one, every EMT and paramedic was ordered to stay at work "indefinitely." we were provided cots and food. we worked rotating shifts. simple. and it worked. AND we worked outside, sometimes having to walk a block or two carrying our equipment to get to the patient and then carry her/him back. poor babies those BCIS gals and guys...they would've had to work in a controlled, heated environment...my heart bleeds.

                  as for gates, i really don't think there was a true gate shortage. rather, there was a lack of gumption on the part of the airport crews to clear ramp areas quickly to allow gates to be used.

                  i am not an airport worker nor do have i ever been. but having traveled as much as i have, and having had the opportunity to witness first hand the abject laziness of many workers here in the good ole US of A, i'm pretty comfortable in saying that these delays are a result of a lack of caring, a lack of initiative, and absolute failure to think outside of the box. wanna know why? cuz the jerks making the decisions on the ground, don't have to spend 11 hours locked up in an aluminum tube. i would pay a whole crapload of money to be able to lock up a bunch of these "decision makers" in a jet with no air conditioning, in the summer for 4 hours like they did to these poor Virgin pax in CT this year, or in the tiny little commuter jet, with no food or water for 8 hours like they did to the folks on the continental plane. yeah, with CCTV broadcast to the world to show them suffering. things MIGHT change after that...

                  rant over!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by TeeVee View Post
                    Curtis, you are correct. and i'll tell you how BCIS could've handled it...the same way every other uniformed service handles situations like this: mandatory overtime. i spent 14 years as a paramedic in NYC. in 1996, during a winter storm that dumped more snow on the city than this last one, every EMT and paramedic was ordered to stay at work "indefinitely." we were provided cots and food. we worked rotating shifts. simple. and it worked. AND we worked outside, sometimes having to walk a block or two carrying our equipment to get to the patient and then carry her/him back. poor babies those BCIS gals and guys...they would've had to work in a controlled, heated environment...my heart bleeds.
                    The difference is that ICE agents are not, as such, emergency personnel (PAPD officers are), so I wonder if different rules might apply to overtime, mandatory or otherwise.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I see both sides of the coin here...

                      MCM is very probably correct - at the moment with no one person willing to stick his/her neck out and do the 'right thing' (which would probably involve buckets of extra cost/risk/for comaratively little return - then leaving people on a plane is probably the smart thing. Of course, captain's to use their initiative - if the A/c isn't working and its high summer than the captain gets to blow the whistle and get the authorities moving - after all it just became a safety issue not an inconvenience issue.

                      Then again, Tee Vee is IMHO also correct - 11 hours is just beserk! An hour or two or three is understandable, more is starting to push the friendship, and it would be possible to deplane 20 aircraft if needed BUT only if someone in authority has authorised the masses of extra staff/space, vehicles needed to make this work. The person making that call is essentially running up a bill of hundreds of thousands of dollars of extra cost though.

                      A confluence of events have transpired to make this situation difficult to salvage:

                      1. Airports usually through deliberate innattention/politician 'head in the sand' syndrome have been getting busier with less and less flexibilty in case something does not go to plan. The irony of course here (and it's missed by the vast majority of the travelling public) is that the politician who is possibly mouthing off about the unacceptable delays etc at airports and the incompetent leadership of same are also likely to be the same politicians that have deferred a decision for the past 40 years to establish a larger better airport elsewhere eg Mascot that would have possibly prevented the problem from occurring in the first place.

                      2. Commonsense cannot be employed - you could not have say 2 ground staff go out to a 737 some distance from the terminal with a set of airstairs to deplane the 100 or so pax because sure as eggs, some moron despite being briefed to stay close is going to end up falling into a drain/walking into the middle of the active runway or peering a little too closely into the front of a GE90 being started. Then the lawyers (sorry Tee Vee) would have a field day.

                      The only way to deplane a 737 a couple of hundred meters away from an aerobridge would be to have everyone on board be advised of the dangers of the operation on a 30 minute powerpoint presentation, sign detailed waivers, employ staff ground staff to form an arm in arm human fence so that the morons don't stray, have a Intensive Care ambulance standing by in case the extra exertion doesn't cause some moron to have a heart attack, then finally after getting people to the terminal, provide all with food/water/blankets/counsellors so than can discuss the tragedy that just unfolded at the start of their vacation. PS - this list is only for fine weather/daylight deplaning no more than 200m from the terminal - fuggedaboutit if any of these parameters is exceeded.

                      3. Cost. Who would pay for the extra staff to make this happen? The extra building that may need to be reopened?

                      4. Finally, and most importantly - who the hell is going to make this potentially career ending decision? Say the senior staff member seeing a storm front approaching elects to shut down the airport - on the available evidence, its going to be a 3 hour delay minimum, so he/she hits the panic button, brings in extra staff, turns the carefully corodinated ballet of airport operations on its ear to do the 'right thing' for all the passengers. Then, the weather front turns away or is nowhere near the intensity - and there are further delays getting people back onto planes - airline pilots running out of duty hours etc... You can bet that the finger will be pointed and people will be screaming for blood. Happened here a few years ago in the Hunter Valley - the emergency management services determined there would be a flood sufficient to breach the flood levee's around one of the major towns (Singleton? Maitland?) and had the place evacuated. Turns out the levee held and the recriminations were legendary (people are strange cattle as my old man says).

                      Y'know, at the end of the day a good deal of common sense and better airport design would help - but hey, you cannot plan for mother nature and at times, these screw ups will occur.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Good, fast or cheap? Well pick two.

                        How do you think I felt being delayed in Newark for hours circling over Ireland for hours and then being held on the ground for hours at Stansted only to arrive at Gatwick at 5 in the evening. On the ground they said "runway repairs" but when we finally got there we are headed for the gate and go by Air Force 2 they held flights into London for like 7 hours because some member of the US Imperial family was going to be there? I started asking around and there were no repairs it was all delays due to an aircraft of the US Presidential fleet. Some folks said later that Dan Quayle was in town for some meetings.

                        It's like when the American buffoon Whoopi Goldberg tried to shut down the NJ Turnpike so she could motor at high speed from her Connecticut home to the inaugural hug fest for Bill Clinton. She wanted a high speed State Police escort. Denied ... but the brass balls?

                        They pack them in and when the system goes down?

                        But if they cancel flights when the weather does not happen they are fools. Fools who are sitting on expensive equipment that can't move.

                        It is a no win situation.

                        I looked at a "save money" flight that my wife booked and it struck me that part of the flight was "AIM 1" of Len Morgans book. That route was a nightmare in November. Sure enough we are stuck with two screaming kids in some eastern city for hours. We could have gone direct but we had to save money.

                        You don't want to sit in airports, then look at the f'ing weather map. This is like my buddy who books discount cruises to the Caribbean in early September and then pisses and moans because the ocean was rough?

                        Book during early morning in June for God's sake.
                        Live, from a grassy knoll somewhere near you.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          A lot can happen in the time an international flight is airborne. What do they do, turn it around? Stuff happens, but this is really rare.
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