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  • Originally Posted by AVION1
    Those pilots should surrender their pilot's licenses and ASIANA airlines should be banned from flying into the United States. And their passports should be confiscated.

    Originally posted by Myndee View Post
    I concur. I am willing to bet that these pilots didn't have sim training on this approach.
    And your qualifications to make this statement are?

    Those of us that fly part 121 aircraft fly into airports everyday that we have not necessarily flown simulator approaches into. Did you even think about that before you posted it? You think the airlines could or would spend the time and the $$ to have us train in the sim for every airport that we fly in and out of?

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    • Originally posted by Evan View Post
      What story does this tell us?

      Holy shit and WTF. Surely they got a sink rate warning and they ignored it.

      And yes again, we are going to be talking more about CRM. Cultural norms are not going to change. It is unthinkable for them to embarrass an elder, and that is embedded deep. Death before dishonor.

      Witnesses said the plane on Saturday appeared to be too low as it approached the runway, hit the ground before the runway started and the impact sheared off part of the tail of the plane and possibly landing gear as well.

      Asiana's chief executive said on Saturday that he did not believe the fatal crash was caused by mechanical failure, although the carrier refused to be drawn on whether the fault laid with pilot error.
      Possibly sheared off? I hate the media.

      Um, no Asiana is not going to be in any sort of big hurry to call this pilot error. The ink on the NTSB final report won't be dry when the lawsuits start rolling in.
      I do work for a domestic US airline, and it should be noted that I do not represent such airline, or any airline. My opinions are mine alone, and aren't reflective of anything but my own knowledge, or what I am trying to learn. At no time will I discuss my specific airline, internal policies, or any such info.

      Comment


      • I work for an airline, and I have been studying aircraft accidents since I was nine years old and witnessed the Delta 191 crash victims through my playroom window at Children's Medical Center/Parkland. The heli pad was right outside and I saw things that nobody should ever have to see. Parkland is the burn unit in DFW. I was traumatized, and the only way I was able to deal with it was to try to understand how it happened. I was taken to the crash site a couple of days later. The smell on the air was horrible.

        Anyway, I figured most of the pilots would come out in droves to defend their kin.

        They were morons.

        Sorry.



        Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
        Originally Posted by AVION1
        Those pilots should surrender their pilot's licenses and ASIANA airlines should be banned from flying into the United States. And their passports should be confiscated.



        And your qualifications to make this statement are?

        Those of us that fly part 121 aircraft fly into airports everyday that we have not necessarily flown simulator approaches into. Did you even think about that before you posted it? You think the airlines could or would spend the time and the $$ to have us train in the sim for every airport that we fly in and out of?
        I do work for a domestic US airline, and it should be noted that I do not represent such airline, or any airline. My opinions are mine alone, and aren't reflective of anything but my own knowledge, or what I am trying to learn. At no time will I discuss my specific airline, internal policies, or any such info.

        Comment


        • So, the aircraft came in looking like my profile picture.

          Thank God for the improvements in technology. These events are few and far between, even compared to 20 years ago.

          Good night all.
          I do work for a domestic US airline, and it should be noted that I do not represent such airline, or any airline. My opinions are mine alone, and aren't reflective of anything but my own knowledge, or what I am trying to learn. At no time will I discuss my specific airline, internal policies, or any such info.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Myndee View Post
            I work for an airline, and I have been studying aircraft accidents since I was nine years old and witnessed the Delta 191 crash victims through my playroom window at Children's Medical Center/Parkland. The heli pad was right outside and I saw things that nobody should ever have to see. Parkland is the burn unit in DFW. I was traumatized, and the only way I was able to deal with it was to try to understand how it happened. I was taken to the crash site a couple of days later. The smell on the air was horrible.
            And what exactly is your job title at this airline? Do you think because you witnessed another aircraft accident you have the qualifications to justify your remark validating AVION1's statement for revoking an airlines right to fly into the U.S and having the certificates of two flight crew members revoked?

            You are aware they call this an accident right? I seriously doubt these guys decided to do this for fun.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Myndee View Post
              I concur. I am willing to bet that these pilots didn't have sim training on this approach.
              The pilot in question, assumed to be PF at the time, is reported to have flown into SFO numerous times as PIC in other types (although perhaps not without ILS). I think the more appropriate question is: was this non-standard approach adequately planned and briefed in the cockpit.

              I still think this appears to be CFIT rather than stall. Given the culture, I wouldn't be at all surprised if cockpit gradient played a role here.

              (Myndee, could you possibly remove the Steelers livery shot or make it your avatar? It's great but it really eats up the page if you post a lot. Thanks.)

              Comment


              • There is much we don't know and some of it may be very significant in explaining what happened on the FD. I've done my share of accident investigations and I rarely keep exactly the same perspective I had between first impression and final colation of evidence.

                When kids are killed, its very hard not to be judgmental, but lets see what comes out in the investigation before we string these guys up too high.

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                • Originally posted by Dispatch Dog View Post
                  With an experienced and senior co pilot in the right seat, it should rule out the classic junior pilot reluctance to say anything. In this situation, it was the co-pilot's job to say something.
                  Not only that, but apparently in this case the copilot was also, the Big Boss, the final authority, the one with the last word, the ultimate responsible for the safety of the flight, the highest link in the chain of command, or, in short, the PIC.

                  So how can almost 17,000 flying hours not maintain the basic concept of piloting?

                  There has to be something missing here.
                  I am famous for getting angry when these things happen and saying things like "Wasn't somebody supposed to be FLYING the plane? Didn't they note the speed decay in the Primary Flight Display, that has the words Primary and Flight in its name for a good reason?"

                  However, since the error is not impossible, it WILL happen with a certain frequency depending on its likelihood.

                  So even if you put a low likelihood, like the two pilots don't making this combined mistake in a 99.9999% of the cases, this leaves the opportunity for this incident to happen every 1 million flights. And does happen from time to time, sometimes with the fortune to happen a couple hundred feet higher to enable a recovery before hitting something.

                  A study showed that in every flight there are mistakes. And several.
                  Of course, the system is designed robust, so a human mistake doesn't down a plane in the vast majority of the cases. The mistakes are almost always detected by the offender, or by the other crewmember, or during a checklist, or by some airplane system (like the GPWS).

                  In very few cases, the holes of the Swiss cheese will align to let an airplane fly through them to an accident. And as long as humans are part of the loop, these things will unavoidably keep happening.

                  The key is to work to minimize the likelihood and hence the frequency not only of the mistakes themselves, but of them propagating to cause an accident.

                  --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                  --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                    And what exactly is your job title at this airline? Do you think because you witnessed another aircraft accident you have the qualifications to justify your remark validating AVION1's statement for revoking an airlines right to fly into the U.S and having the certificates of two flight crew members revoked?

                    You are aware they call this an accident right? I seriously doubt these guys decided to do this for fun.
                    Completely agree with Bobby. Myndee you don't really know what you're talking about, sorry. Pilots cannot train in a simulator for every single airport they are flying into, nor is that in any way necessary. Please think about the logistics of doing so. The fact that this was his first landing at SFO and that he only had 43 hours on the triple seven is rather inconsequential here, this is something that happens regularly when pilots are training on a new type.

                    As far as banning Asiana airlines, pilots from US carriers (and others) have screwed up just as bad if not worse, and it would also be good to withhold full judgement of the pilots of flight 214 till the investigation is complete. Regardless of the outcome, I find it likely that this will be the end of their careers at Asiana, and possibly on the flight deck in general.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by BoeingBobby View Post
                      And your qualifications to make this statement are?
                      Ok, enough of that.

                      BoeingBobby, could you please stop asking everyone about their qualifications to post their thoughts or opinions in this forum?

                      This is an Internet forum, not a 747, so an ATP license is not required here.

                      It would be much more constructive, in my opinion, if you criticized others based on what they said and not in their qualifications to say what they did.

                      Thank you.

                      --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                      --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Evan View Post
                        I still think this appears to be CFIT rather than stall. Given the culture, I wouldn't be at all surprised if cockpit gradient played a role here.[/COLOR]
                        Well, the line is not perfectly clear, but I don't think this is the typical CFIT accident where the pilot fly the plane completely in control almost until they have hit and when they want to react it's too late.

                        It's also not the typical stall accident, I concur.

                        The speed was never stabilized, it was decaying during the whole approach all the way to the stickshaker (and it kept decaying until 103 kts, can you imagine that?). The approach was not stabilized in many other ways, like path, vertical speed and thrust.

                        I'd say it's more a case of loss of control. But the label is not so important, I guess.

                        --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                        --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                          Ok, enough of that.

                          BoeingBobby, could you please stop asking everyone about their qualifications to post their thoughts or opinions in this forum?

                          This is an Internet forum, not a 747, so an ATP license is not required here.

                          It would be much more constructive, in my opinion, if you criticized others based on what they said and not in their qualifications to say what they did.

                          Thank you.
                          I also agree with this, I have no qualifications in this discussion beyond what I have learned on my own, and about 30 hours in Cherokees and Cessna 152s. Nor do specific qualifications necessarily mean someone is always right.

                          Comment


                          • Boeingbobby, do you have anything of interest to add to this discussion?

                            Comment


                            • Has anyone found any further news on the two young passengers who died, after being ejected from the aircraft? There were reports that an emergency vehicle may have run over one of them, this is pretty startling considering the crash occurred in broad daylight. Also, from the eyewitness account by the UAL 744 FO:

                              Approximately two minutes later I was looking out the left side cockpit windows and noticed movement on the right side of Runway 28L. Two survivors were stumbling but moving abeam the Runway "28L" marking on the North side of the runway. I saw one survivor stand up, walk a few feet, then appear to squat down. The other appeared to be a woman and was walking, then fell off to her side and remained on the ground until rescue personnel arrived. The Captain was on the radio and I told him to tell tower what I had seen, but I ended up taking the microphone instead of relaying through him. I told SFO tower that there appeared to be survivors on the right side of the runway and they needed to send assistance immediately. It seemed to take a very long time for vehicles and assistance to arrive for these victims. The survivors I saw were approximately 1000-1500' away from the fuselage and had apparently been ejected from the fuselage.
                              Doesn't sound good...if they were alive and mobile after the accident but help took so long to arrive...

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                                Well, the line is not perfectly clear, but I don't think this is the typical CFIT accident where the pilot fly the plane completely in control almost until they have hit and when they want to react it's too late.

                                It's also not the typical stall accident, I concur.

                                The speed was never stabilized, it was decaying during the whole approach all the way to the stickshaker (and it kept decaying until 103 kts, can you imagine that?). The approach was not stabilized in many other ways, like path, vertical speed and thrust.

                                I'd say it's more a case of loss of control. But the label is not so important, I guess.
                                What do you make of that plot I posted earlier, especially that 600' drop below the glidepath? I'm thinking maybe it's related to A/P disconnect...

                                EDIT: If that plot is at all accurate of course...

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