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UPS Cargo Jet Crashes Near Birmingham Shuttlesworth International Airport

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  • Is the margin for error much much smaller on landing?

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    • Originally posted by EconomyClass View Post
      Is the margin for error much much smaller on landing?
      The big hill that they crashed into is not present on the approach to 36.
      Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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      • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
        The big hill that they crashed into is not present on the approach to 36.
        I think I get that part, but I also assume lots of successful landings have occurred on both runways, which tells me that the big hill is not an insuperable barrier.

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        • Originally posted by EconomyClass View Post
          I think I get that part, but I also assume lots of successful landings have occurred on both runways, which tells me that the big hill is not an insuperable barrier.
          Correct...and a properly-flown instrument approach should have provided a nice safety buffer.

          However, the point is that a professional pilot, familiar with the airport said that he would probably have requested runway 36 due to his knowledge of the terrain and light winds.

          He even suggested that if the UPS crew was unfamiliar with the airport, they might have "blindly" made a "bad" decision.

          That at least calls for a "hmmm" and this emoticon and perhaps wondering if Snyder/BB would chime in.
          Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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          • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
            Correct...and a properly-flown instrument approach should have provided a nice safety buffer.

            However, the point is that a professional pilot, familiar with the airport said that he would probably have requested runway 36 due to his knowledge of the terrain and light winds.

            He even suggested that if the UPS crew was unfamiliar with the airport, they might have "blindly" made a "bad" decision.

            That at least calls for a "hmmm" and this emoticon and perhaps wondering if Snyder/BB would chime in.
            I just looked at the approach plates for both runways. The minimums are lower on 18 (1200' and with vis 1 1/2 (cat c) or 1 3/4 (cat D)) than they are on 36 (1480' with vis 2 1/2 (c) or 2 3/4 (d)). Runway 36 has a 1239 foot hill (about 600' AGL) to the left of course at 5 mile and a 2049 (1400 AGL) foot tower a little farther left a little closer in. Of course, Runway 18 has the hill at two miles from the runway.

            Honestly, looking at the approach plates, I would probably choose 18 over 36 as well due to the lower minimums. I don't see a problem with an approach to either runway, assuming they are properly flown.
            The "keep my tail out of trouble" disclaimer: Though I work in the airline industry, anything I post on here is my own speculation or opinion. Nothing I post is to be construed as "official" information from any air carrier or any other entity.

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            • This was a diverted flight, correct? Maybe it isn't surprising they didn't know which runway to choose.

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              • Originally posted by EconomyClass View Post
                This was a diverted flight, correct? Maybe it isn't surprising they didn't know which runway to choose.
                It shouldn't make any difference. The runway length was adequate, the approach was legal and laid out according to the TERPS requirements. The weather met the required minimums.

                Quite often ATC assigns runways due to noise or other issues (I don't know if that is an issue in this case or not) and, unless there is an "operational necessity" the pilot doesn't have a choice.
                The "keep my tail out of trouble" disclaimer: Though I work in the airline industry, anything I post on here is my own speculation or opinion. Nothing I post is to be construed as "official" information from any air carrier or any other entity.

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                • Originally posted by EconomyClass View Post
                  This was a diverted flight, correct? Maybe it isn't surprising they didn't know which runway to choose.
                  Just to be clear runways 18 and 24 are the same runway but the approach is from opposite directions. If they had a choice I would expect them to pick the runway where they would end up closest to the UPS facility.

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                  • Originally posted by Highkeas View Post
                    Just to be clear runways 18 and 24 are the same runway but the approach is from opposite directions. If they had a choice I would expect them to pick the runway where they would end up closest to the UPS facility.
                    Umm....wrong...twice.
                    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                    • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                      Umm....wrong...twice.
                      Oooops - my math error. It is 18 and 36 that use the same physical runway.

                      My second comment was based on my pilot neighbor comment and makes sense to me provided it is safe to do so.

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                      • So ATC said use this runway, they used it, but navigation made a hill which shouldn't have been a problem into one. By the way, when a plane is lost due to a goof, the insurance company takes the hit, correct?

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                        • Originally posted by EconomyClass View Post
                          So ATC said use this runway, they used it, but navigation made a hill which shouldn't have been a problem into one. By the way, when a plane is lost due to a goof, the insurance company takes the hit, correct?
                          No, actually the trees take the hit.

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                          • Originally posted by Highkeas View Post
                            Oooops - my math error. It is 18 and 36 that use the same physical runway.

                            My second comment was based on my pilot neighbor comment and makes sense to me provided it is safe to do so.
                            With respect to your neighbor, to simply say that you choose the runway closest to your facility is wrong.

                            If the close runway required a lot more flying distance, they would probably not chose it.

                            If the big runway was open, I bet a steak dinner they would have chosen it.

                            If the winds did not favor the runway closer to their facility they probably would not choose it.

                            If the ATIS and ATC was suggesting a runway further from the facility, they would tend to land on that runway.

                            All things being equal and if you have a choice... THEN you would chose the closer runway, but at a place like Birmingham there's a whole lot of OTHER things that might make you chose a runway further from your ramp.
                            Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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                            • Originally posted by 3WE View Post
                              With respect to your neighbor, to simply say that you choose the runway closest to your facility is wrong.

                              If the close runway required a lot more flying distance, they would probably not chose it.

                              If the big runway was open, I bet a steak dinner they would have chosen it.

                              If the winds did not favor the runway closer to their facility they probably would not choose it.

                              If the ATIS and ATC was suggesting a runway further from the facility, they would tend to land on that runway.

                              All things being equal and if you have a choice... THEN you would chose the closer runway, but at a place like Birmingham there's a whole lot of OTHER things that might make you chose a runway further from your ramp.
                              Not to mention that for RWY 18 they had been in a sort of long straight-in since take off. In IMC as they were, any other runway would have likely added 30 miles or more and perhaps 10 minutes to the flight, more than what they would save by ending the landing roll at the dock.

                              --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                              --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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                              • Originally posted by Evan View Post
                                No, actually the trees take the hit.
                                Well, physically speaking. And the plane takes it. But later, when the finances get settled, does the insurance company open its checkbook to compensate the operator for the value of the lost plane?

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