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Germanwings A320 on BCN-DUS flight crash near Nice, France

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  • Originally posted by Peter Kesternich View Post
    Off-topic: Please, please, don't lump us all in with those crazy-ass Berliners... There's about 70 million of us Germans strongly objecting to that
    Sorry Peter, not meant as a slight against Germans, just an observation that there is a lot of untreated mental illness in Berlin. I should add that Germans are also some of the most rational and intelligent people I have ever met. But in Kreuzberg you can't swing a toten Katze without hitting a wing nut or two. There is a lot of surpressed shame and anger in these people. There is a high rate of unemployment amongst them. And there is the path you choose in life at an early age that you are cast into, making it very difficult to switch professions if you fail. Germany is investing a lot into stimulating the national birth rate. It would be nice if they invested as much in the damaged national psyche.

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    • Originally posted by Evan View Post
      Sorry Peter, not meant as a slight against Germans, just an observation that there is a lot of untreated mental illness in Berlin. I should add that Germans are also some of the most rational and intelligent people I have ever met. But in Kreuzberg you can't swing a toten Katze without hitting a wing nut or two. There is a lot of surpressed shame and anger in these people. There is a high rate of unemployment amongst them. And there is the path you choose in life at an early age that you are cast into, making it very difficult to switch professions if you fail. Germany is investing a lot into stimulating the national birth rate. It would be nice if they invested as much in the damaged national psyche.
      No worries.. it's just that you picked the most extreme city in Germany... I didn't want to let that go uncommented... No offense taken...

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      • German public television (ARD) reports that accodring to the Düsseldorf state attorney the F/O had been in therapy for several years because he was suicidal. That happened before he started pilot training. During his recent visits to the doctor there had been no signs of danger to himself or other people. So far, current medical documentation does not show anything pathological.

        Überblick zu Hintergründen, Analysen und Interviews bei tagesschau.de - die erste Adresse für Nachrichten und umfassende Berichte zu aktuellen Themen.

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        • Originally posted by Peter Kesternich View Post
          No worries.. it's just that you picked the most extreme city in Germany... I didn't want to let that go uncommented... No offense taken...
          Genau.

          But let me ask you this, as a German: If a young man decides upon being a pilot, goes through all the training and gets his ATPL, begins working as a line pilot and then realizes he is too mentally unbalanced to continue flying (and probably always will be), how difficult is it to start over in a different profession? My impression in Germany is that, once you have chosen your field and obtained the education and have established a CV, it becomes a rigid perception that can be very hard to overcome. Job interviews reach back to grade school. To get a German work visa I was asked to show my high-school diploma. It was hard enough for me just to find my university diploma.

          Is this more or less true? If Lubitz had no future as a pilot, were his alternate prospects in life severely limited?

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          • Changing a career has become much easier in Germany in the past decades. First of all, there are programs to retrain people who can not stay in their original job any longer - both, government- and company-sponsored. I would believe that Lufthansa has such a program in place, because in a company as big as theirs, there will always be people - flight crew or cabin crew - who lose their flying status. You can't get fired just because you are sick. But you will have to accept a re-assignment. I think herein lies the problem with the F/O of 4U9525. I imagine that a flying career was his life's dream. What pushed him over was not the fear of not being able to do his original job... it was the fear of losing that dream.

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            • Originally posted by Peter Kesternich View Post
              Changing a career has become much easier in Germany in the past decades. First of all, there are programs to retrain people who can not stay in their original job any longer - both, government- and company-sponsored. I would believe that Lufthansa has such a program in place, because in a company as big as theirs, there will always be people - flight crew or cabin crew - who lose their flying status. You can't get fired just because you are sick. But you will have to accept a re-assignment. I think herein lies the problem with the F/O of 4U9525. I imagine that a flying career was his life's dream. What pushed him over was not the fear of not being able to do his original job... it was the fear of losing that dream.
              Would you mind if I jump in the discussion without being invited, Evan and Peter?
              Career change is very difficult at any circumstances mainly considering that a 26/28 years old guy has completed his professional formation. Add to the equation that he chose a career that involves very specific qualifications and as far as I learn from the pilots I know, involves a lot of strong sentiments. He probably chose to fly because as all other pilots, he loved to fly.There is information from the lay media he started as a glider pilot in very early stages of his life, fact that somehow shows his passion.
              If he was put out of aviation and chose to become a professional truck driver or a ship captain, we would certainly be not discussing the flight 9525 but rather a similar tragedy in the European roads or the Mediterranean Sea because the chain of events that led him to kill himself and others would still remain.
              A no-way-out scenario? No. This is a medical situation and the solution is medical treatment probably with an additional very close mentoring/counseling (as mentioned previously by someone in this forum– I do not remember who) to help him in his life including changing his carrer.
              It happened in the aviation industry.
              Question: How the aviation industry will deal with this fact?

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              • This just in...
                Duesseldorf public prosecutor Christoph Kumpa said that "several years" before Lubitz became a pilot he "had at that time been in treatment of a psychotherapist because of what is documented as being suicidal".

                Ok, that is unacceptable. I realize a person can overcome mental health issues but there is no way a person with a history of documented suicidal tendencies should ever be allowed to fly in commercial aviation. There is too much at stake to take that kind of chance.

                Pilot certification agencies and airline HR must have exemption to the privacy laws governing personal health information. If you want this information to remain private, you can alway not become a commercial airline pilot.

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                • Originally posted by Evan View Post
                  This just in...
                  Duesseldorf public prosecutor Christoph Kumpa said that "several years" before Lubitz became a pilot he "had at that time been in treatment of a psychotherapist because of what is documented as being suicidal".

                  Ok, that is unacceptable. I realize a person can overcome mental health issues but there is no way a person with a history of documented suicidal tendencies should ever be allowed to fly in commercial aviation. There is too much at stake to take that kind of chance.

                  Pilot certification agencies and airline HR must have exemption to the privacy laws governing personal health information. If you want this information to remain private, you can alway not become a commercial airline pilot.

                  Or health care profissionais (in general, including " non-company doctors") should be aware that due to specifics of civil aviation, usual parameters of incapacity, medical leaves, etc have to be revised accordingly.

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                  • Originally posted by Observer View Post
                    Or health care profissionais (in general, including " non-company doctors") should be aware that due to specifics of civil aviation, usual parameters of incapacity, medical leaves, etc have to be revised accordingly.
                    Become aware? Isn't that just insanely obvious?

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                    • Originally posted by Evan View Post
                      (...)
                      Ok, that is unacceptable. I realize a person can overcome mental health issues but there is no way a person with a history of documented suicidal tendencies should ever be allowed to fly in commercial aviation. There is too much at stake to take that kind of chance.
                      (...)
                      I agree. He should have never been put in a cockpit. But he obviously slipped through the system. Here's where there's need for improvement.

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                      • Air carriers should adopt a pre-mental screening for hiring, in addition to adding annual evaluation for mental health issues as part of the re-certification process:

                        DUESSELDORF, Germany (AP) -- The co-pilot of Germanwings Flight 9525 that crashed into the French Alps last week had received treatment for suicidal tendencies several years ago, prosecutors said Monday.

                        Duesseldorf prosecutors say co-pilot Andreas Lubitz, 27, had received psychotherapy "with a note about suicidal tendencies" for several years before becoming a pilot.

                        "In the following period, and until recently, further doctor's visits took place, resulting in sick notes without any suicidal tendencies or aggression against others being recorded," prosecutors' spokesman Ralf Herrenbrueck said in a written statement.

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                        • Originally posted by Evan View Post
                          Become aware? Isn't that just insanely obvious?
                          Not at all.
                          "Suicidal tendencies" is a very broad term.
                          Not everyone has to quit his job (even temporary) because he/she has a Suicidal tendency. Medical protocols assume that people with suicidal tendency has to be treated/dealed with resources that cause the minimum impact in their individual life. Depending on the case, a suicidal tendency person continues to work (because working may help his treatment) even if he/she is under medication/therapy treatment. Sometimes not. Sometimes the person has to be treated at hospitals / specialized clínics. Sometimes to treat a suicidal tendency doctors use medications. Others not.
                          What I ment is that that due to civil aviation specificities, the current protocols to treat " suicidal tendencies people " has to be adapted if this patient is a FC member by, for instance, putting all "Suicidal tendency FC member" out of his/her duties immediately regardless other factors.
                          Regular "non-company" doctors may not be aware about civil aviation specificities.

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                          • Originally posted by Peter Kesternich View Post
                            I agree. He should have never been put in a cockpit. But he obviously slipped through the system. Here's where there's need for improvement.
                            Exactly.
                            Assuming everyone (Lufthansa, CO-pilot, doctor) played by the rules and we are not talking non-qualified "poor" professionals, there is a flaw in the system.
                            The screening, training, licensing, renewing licensing processes have to be revised

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                            • Originally posted by Observer View Post
                              Exactly.
                              Assuming everyone (Lufthansa, CO-pilot, doctor) played by the rules and we are not talking non-qualified "poor" professionals, there is a flaw in the system.
                              The screening, training, licensing, renewing licensing processes have to be revised
                              The F/O obviously didn't play by the rules in the days leading up to the crash...

                              What I meant when I said that he slipped through the system is that he never should have received pilot training in the first place....

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                              • Originally posted by Peter Kesternich View Post
                                The F/O obviously didn't play by the rules in the days leading up to the crash...

                                What I meant when I said that he slipped through the system is that he never should have received pilot training in the first place....
                                It depends.
                                You said earlier that according to German rules, the leave note from a "non-company" doctor is delivered to the patient and he is in charge of notifying the company because the doctor-patient confidentiality does not allow the doctor to disclose the diagnosis direct to the company.
                                In some way, the co-pilot and the doctor played by the rules. The co-pilot did not notify Lufthansa and here is one flaw in the process. But today, given the information we have, I assume ripping off the leave note was a symptom of the co-pilot's disease.
                                What if, by new rules, in case of a potential suicidal FC member or a FC member with any sort of mental/physical disorder (even in mild cases) the "non-company" doctor is obliged to directly notify the airline ? We probably would not be discussing flight 9525.
                                But in this case, the discussion will focus on how to preserve the FC 's privacy and how to avoid FC members not disclosing their jobs to "non-company" doctors (as previously mentioned by someone).

                                And I also agree with you: he could not be flying last Tuesday in anyway and looking back (easy to say now that we have many clear evidences), he should not obtain his certification

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