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Thread: Germanwings A320 on BCN-DUS flight crash near Nice, France

  1. #61
    Senior Member 3WE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    Constant vertical speed, constant speed and constant track doesn't sound like catastrophic anything.


    http://avherald.com/h?article=483a5651&opt=0
    When avion posted that the news was telling us of distress calls and not so constant descents...
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MCM View Post
    One of the ways pilots are taught to initiate a rapid descent is 'Turn - Pull, Turn - Pull, Pull'.

    This is - Turn (spin) the altitude selector down, and pull (for Open descent)
    Turn the heading selector (if desired) and pull (for heading)
    Pull for selected airspeed.

    This gets the descent initiated. The pilot then would check the FMA's, ensure thrust is coming to idle, extend speed brakes, and then go back to the modes and accurately set a desired altitude, heading, and decide if they wanted to descend at the current speed (i.e. potential structural damage) or accelerate to reduce descent time (e.g. dual pack failure).

    If the pilot became incapacitated after doing the first three items, but before returning to the mode panel, the aircraft would descend to whatever altitude ended up in the altitude window after the first turn (which is basically a blind spin of the knob). The pilot would not need to wake up for the aircraft to level off at the random level obtained.

    Did it climb? I guess we'll find that out, but it could be speculation based on incorrect altitude data (such as that obtained by difference between QNH and Standard altimeter). A climb would certainly need to be pilot initiated.
    I suspect this was a case of 'Spin-Pull-Loss of Consciousness' and possibly speedbrake. The airspeed was clearly not set for emergency descent (unless there was structural damage) and they did not turn off heading (isn't that SOP?). I was also thinking the 6800' report could be attributed to barometric error.

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    Hmm. These things are built to withstand a lot (taken from BBC):

    It looks from the speed graphs that rather than an engine-out/stall, low(ish) ground-speed impact trying to convert horizontal speed into staying aloft, it hit at close to cruise speed. I guess that's going to cause a bit of damage...

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    Default CVR damage

    The damage shown in this photo is to the aircraft interface electronics which appear to have absorbed most of the impact as it was designed to do. The solid state storage is in the round canister and it appears to be intact.

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    i'm just asking here because i dont know and there is a lot of things written in these forums i dont understand (aviation tech speak)...but lets speculate a rapid decompression (rapid not explosive) at 380....could that in seconds cause everybody to pass out...inc pilots...meaning in seconds the plane was flying but not on AP....as they pass out....plane goes nose down....till its almost into the mountain...but the pilot wakes (cause he's below 10k)....but too late? cant recover or do anything about it crashing at cruise speed.

    any bog holes in this speculative theory from a layman?

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    Senior Member LH-B744's Avatar
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    You see me speechless, which is a rather rare event.

    And even 24 hours after the 4U-A320 (flight number 9525) crashed into a south-French rock, I have a lot more questions than answers.

    The impact happened with fire, at approx. 4900. So, it seems like the pilot was not able to talk the computers aboard into an altitude which was defined by himself,
    BEFORE top of descent.

    1. Who on Earth would define an altitude in mountainous terrain which is lower than the rocks in that area?
    The peaks in that area easily reach 6500 or higher.

    2. How came that cruise alt (38000) was only maintained for 1 minute?

    3. How came that negative v/s (vertical speed, Boeing language, sorry) was activated with open end?

    4. Is it the same computer logic that leads to self-deactivation (!!) of the a/p?

    It must be computer failure. And what Gabriel has found in his topic of today (AoA sensors) fits into that logic.

    What a sad day, with so many questions!
    One evening, not long ago, I watched TV and I wondered what you will possibly do after you've lost one parent. Strange question, why did I wonder. You will possibly be annoyed because he will miss so many happenings which you liked to show him. But after you somehow have regained your countenance, you will also join again people who you don't know. Stay strong, Jimmy.

    Aviation enthusiast since more than 30 years.

  7. #67
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    Quick, lazy question: Would someone briefly review the rules about "one-crewman-always-wears-an-O2-mask-at-X-altitude-and-Y-situation".

    My fuzzy memory is that it's maybe only during biobreaks/single-pilot operations and also altitudes greater than four one oh.
    Les règles de l'aviation de base découragent de longues périodes de dur tirer vers le haut.

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    I don't know if it has been published here before. But let me say something about nationality of the passengers.

    144 passengers on board and
    6 Germanwings crew members (2 in the cockpit and 4 in the cabin)

    So if we count all nationalities, we should end up with 144.
    -- these numbers are preliminary --
    72 Germany
    35 Spain
    2 Australia
    2 Argentina
    2 Iran
    2 Venezuela
    2 United States of America
    1 Great Britain
    1 Netherlands
    1 Colombia
    1 Mexico
    1 Japan
    1 Denmark
    1 Belgium
    1 Israel

    (c) March 2015, Germanwings.
    translated by LH-B744.

    125 humans identified. So there are 19 passengers left to be identified.

  9. #69
    Senior Member LH-B744's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyerforfun View Post
    Media report that French Civil Aviation confirmed the crash of a Germanwings A320 in Barcelonnette, north of Nice, France.

    The flight was operating from Düsseldorf, Germany to Barcelona, Spain.

    No information yet on causualties
    Today, there is official information about the fatalities.

    But let me first request the correct title for this thread. It was in fact
    NOT a flight to Barcelona!
    The title should contain something like that:
    Germanwings A320 (#9525) on BCN-DUS flight crashed...

    Would you be so kind and do that for me, flyerforfun?

    Now about the fatalities.

    The Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Germany states that nobody survived.

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    The first photo is somewhere above the yellow box
    AirDisaster.com Forum Member 2004-2008

    Quote Originally Posted by orangehuggy View Post
    the most dangerous part of a flight is not the take off or landing anymore, its when a flight crew member goes to the toilet

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by LH-B744 View Post

    1. Who on Earth would define an altitude in mountainous terrain which is lower than the rocks in that area?
    The peaks in that area easily reach 6500 or higher.

    2. How came that cruise alt (38000) was only maintained for 1 minute?

    3. How came that negative v/s (vertical speed, Boeing language, sorry) was activated with open end?

    4. Is it the same computer logic that leads to self-deactivation (!!) of the a/p?

    It must be computer failure. And what Gabriel has found in his topic of today (AoA sensors) fits into that logic.
    1) As MCM outlined for us in his post above, the first action is typically to 'spin down' the altitude to a random number below 10,000 to get the autopilot into the descent, then, when things are more under control to go back and select the precise desired altitude. Apparently they never made it to the second step.

    2) Because whatever happened, happened one minute after reaching cruise altitude.

    3) When a selected altitude is entered on the FCU and the knob is pulled out, that engages a descent in selected guidance mode. The selected guidance version of DES is OP DES, or open descent. It is essentially the same as FLCH.

    4) The AP logic 'gives up' whenever the parameters exceed the autopilot's safe capability. A rapid descent is well within those capabilities so the AP remains active unless commanded off.

    5) No, wrong. Nothing we know thus far points to a computer failure. If a frozen AoA vane scenario occurred, the crew would have been well and recently trained to handle it and would have had eight minutes to communicate the situation to ATC. This is almost certainly a case of crew incapacitation from the onset of the descent.

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    AirDisaster.com Forum Member 2004-2008

    Quote Originally Posted by orangehuggy View Post
    the most dangerous part of a flight is not the take off or landing anymore, its when a flight crew member goes to the toilet

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    Default One of the flying crew member was out of the cockpit

    According to New York Times, one of FC member was out of the cockpit by the time the plane started to descend and was unable to get back.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/26/wo...rash.html?_r=0

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    Quote Originally Posted by observer View Post
    according to new york times, one of fc member was out of the cockpit by the time the plane started to descend and was unable to get back.
    wtaf!
    AirDisaster.com Forum Member 2004-2008

    Quote Originally Posted by orangehuggy View Post
    the most dangerous part of a flight is not the take off or landing anymore, its when a flight crew member goes to the toilet

  17. #77
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    The most dangerous part of the flight is not the take off or landing anymore its when a flight crew member goes to the toilet
    moving quickly in air

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    Quote Originally Posted by orangehuggy View Post
    The most dangerous part of the flight is not the take off or landing anymore its when a flight crew member goes to the toilet
    Boom!
    AirDisaster.com Forum Member 2004-2008

    Quote Originally Posted by orangehuggy View Post
    the most dangerous part of a flight is not the take off or landing anymore, its when a flight crew member goes to the toilet

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    @Gabriel what to make of this news now considering your last post to me about the cockpit door codes? Surely one of the pilots would be able to get back in the cockpit if the one at the controls was incapacitated?

    This is so strange. Is this another pilot suicide?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leftseat86 View Post
    This is so strange. Is this another pilot suicide?
    If this early report proves to correct, it seems so. However, it is very early here. Sounds like theories like MH370, where a pilot may have depressurized a plane and crashed it.

    The article seems to make it sound like the pilot out of the cockpit gave up on trying to get back in. Who would do that if they believed they were going to die? I would expect to hear pounding on that door until the recorder stopped recording.

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