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Thread: Germanwings A320 on BCN-DUS flight crash near Nice, France

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan View Post
    If this early report proves to correct, it seems so. However, it is very early here. Sounds like theories like MH370, where a pilot may have depressurized a plane and crashed it.

    The article seems to make it sound like the pilot out of the cockpit gave up on trying to get back in. Who would do that if they believed they were going to die? I would expect to hear pounding on that door until the recorder stopped recording.
    Not according to the New York Times, which is the source of this new information as relayed to them by an investigator:

    “The guy outside is knocking lightly on the door and there is no answer,” the investigator told the Times. “And then he hits the door stronger and no answer. There is never an answer.”

    “You can hear he is trying to smash the door down.”

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    If the report is correct, we may have the following scenario: as soon as the plane reached cruizing altitud, pilot or co-pilot left the cockpit, a decompression started, whoever was in charge started descending procedures, whoever was out tried to return to the cockpit. Due to overload and/or lack of oxygen, whoever was in charge was incapacitated even to open the door.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Observer View Post
    If the report is correct, we may have the following scenario: as soon as the plane reached cruizing altitud, pilot or co-pilot left the cockpit, a decompression started, whoever was in charge started descending procedures, whoever was out tried to return to the cockpit. Due to overload and/or lack of oxygen, whoever was in charge was incapacitated even to open the door.
    Earlier in the thread it was stated that the crew can reenter the cockpit, without aid from the inside. HOWEVER, the crew in the cockpit can lock the door as such that it prevents reentry. In the case of an accident (assumption now is outside pilot has portable crew O2), they should be able to open the door. In the case of suicide, the door would be locked, plane crashed, all while the crew outside of the cockpit is helpless to prevent it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan View Post
    Earlier in the thread it was stated that the crew can reenter the cockpit, without aid from the inside. HOWEVER, the crew in the cockpit can lock the door as such that it prevents reentry. In the case of an accident (assumption now is outside pilot has portable crew O2), they should be able to open the door. In the case of suicide, the door would be locked, plane crashed, all while the crew outside of the cockpit is helpless to prevent it.
    So in the case of incapacitated PIC in the cockpit - who then also would be unable to confirm to open the door - the key question is: "how long is the lock-out time of the door?"

    In the terrible case of deliberate descend commanded by a person in the cockpit who is not incapacitated that perseon in the cockpit would just lock the door / refuse entry. Since 9/11 doors should be strong enough to withstand a forced opening from a single person on the outside.

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    Is anyone sure that the NY Times report is correct, it would not be the first time that premature information releases have proved to be incorrect.

    In any case this article suggests something different:

    French air accident investigators say they have extracted a recording of “voices, sounds and alarms” from the cockpit of Germanwings flight 4U9525 that crashed on Tuesday, killing all 150 on board.


    The Airbus A320 that ploughed into an Alpine mountain flew “right to the end”, the investigators said, and did not explode mid-flight. It also appeared not to have suffered a sudden drop in pressure.
    http://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world/...id=mailsignout

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    Quote Originally Posted by Observer View Post
    According to New York Times, one of FC member was out of the cockpit by the time the plane started to descend and was unable to get back.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/26/wo...rash.html?_r=0
    I would expect the investigation team to quickly deny this report if untrue at this time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Highkeas View Post
    I would expect the investigation team to deny this report if not true.

    Could the banging be damaged structure flapping around in the airflow (gradually getting louder then breaking free and flying away).
    I imagine that is a plausible source of the noise, however - my hunch is that (if it is true, we dont know yet) it is fairly easy to suspect what sounds like door knocking then banging the ramming sound like. Could they misinterpret? I suppose so, but I think that's plausible but quite unlikely. That's my 0.02.

    I thought prospect of decompr. was just so awful - but if this turns out to be what NYT is suggesting...that will just make me sick to my stomach...both for the pax, for the PNF who is utterly powerless, and for pilots at large who will take a 'hit' for one exceedingly rare mans actions.

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    Default Armored doors

    It appears this may be an unintended consequence of armored cockpit doors!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leftseat86 View Post
    @Gabriel what to make of this news now considering your last post to me about the cockpit door codes? Surely one of the pilots would be able to get back in the cockpit if the one at the controls was incapacitated?
    This is so strange. Is this another pilot suicide?
    Exactly my thought too. If the other pilot was not able to return then the pilot in the cockpit was not incapacitated. Either that or nobody among the crew knew or had the access code.

    I am seriously starting to wonder if these secure doors cause more death than they avoid.

    As a containment, it should be immediately made mandatory what in some airlines is a policy: When a pilot goes out another crew member goes in. No person alone in the cockpit. Not a super-solution but something (consider the flight deck officer program in the US, where the pilot can carry a gun, not much a flight attendant can do if the pilot is serious about his intentions).

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    Then it seems to have been a deliberate act ?! Because with the emergency code the door would normaly open, if it is not locked as you can see in the video:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixEHV7c3VXs

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    Quote Originally Posted by Observer View Post
    If the report is correct, we may have the following scenario: as soon as the plane reached cruizing altitud, pilot or co-pilot left the cockpit, a decompression started, whoever was in charge started descending procedures, whoever was out tried to return to the cockpit. Due to overload and/or lack of oxygen, whoever was in charge was incapacitated even to open the door.
    Not so. The door can be open from outside IF you have the code AND the access is not ACTIVELY denied from inside.

    That's at least my understanding, which could be wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmerich View Post
    Then it seems to have been a deliberate act ?! Because with the emergency code the door would normaly open, if it is not locked as you can see in the video:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixEHV7c3VXs
    Me thinks that this video should not be online.
    At least they were delicate enough to omit the part where the purser, with a terrorist grabbing her from the neck and with a gun against her head, tries to open the cockpit door with the access code, the pilots assess the situation on the security video or spyhole, and deny the access moving the switch to "lock", the the terrorist starts to fire against the cockpit door, but the armored door resists the shots.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    Me thinks that this video should not be online.
    I did not made this video. But am I right? With the emergency code the door can be opened within 40 seconds if it is not conscious banned from the cockpit?
    Will a CVR record so fine noises like the click of a switch?

    Next question, who changes this emergency code? The airline on ground or can the code be changed on air inside the cockpit? Who have this code, the puresette/purser, the pilots?

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    Wouldn't there be a service/maintenance designated Iridium handset located outside the cockpit?
    AirDisaster.com Forum Member 2004-2008

    Quote Originally Posted by orangehuggy View Post
    the most dangerous part of a flight is not the take off or landing anymore, its when a flight crew member goes to the toilet

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    Not so. The door can be open from outside IF you have the code AND the access is not ACTIVELY denied from inside.

    That's at least my understanding, which could be wrong.
    Apparently you're right:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leftseat86 View Post
    @Gabriel what to make of this news now considering your last post to me about the cockpit door codes? Surely one of the pilots would be able to get back in the cockpit if the one at the controls was incapacitated?

    This is so strange. Is this another pilot suicide?
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_..._consciousness
    Gives 30-60s at FL350

    So quite possibly both pilots just ran out of time.
    The cabin would possibly be full of mist or fog also.

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    Unconfirmed: CPT With 6000+ hrs, FO with 600+
    AirDisaster.com Forum Member 2004-2008

    Quote Originally Posted by orangehuggy View Post
    the most dangerous part of a flight is not the take off or landing anymore, its when a flight crew member goes to the toilet

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    Le Monde: Pilots are German nationals, FO the one locked outside
    AirDisaster.com Forum Member 2004-2008

    Quote Originally Posted by orangehuggy View Post
    the most dangerous part of a flight is not the take off or landing anymore, its when a flight crew member goes to the toilet

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    A. The identity of the crew has not been disclosed
    B. There seems to be an issue with the nationality of one crew member
    C. Early evidence from CVR seems to show that the hypothesis of deliberate action must be given some priority
    D. The DFR having not been found, there are no evidence available at this stage to substantiate or eliminate any technical causes
    E. The pieces of information about one crewmember leaving the cockpit and being locked outside has been leaked to the press by an anonymous military source in the U.S. Investigation team didn't spread the word during the press conference yesterday

    In my opinion, guys and girls from the BEA and its german counterpart can now take a few hours of rest. They have done what they could. The case is handed over to French DGSE and German Bundesnachrichtendienst BND and all their MI6, CIA, SVR colleagues... have been reassigned as top priority the profiling of the crew.

    And these services are not known for working under scrutiny of the press. Thus the message has been clearly delivered to Germanwings PR : Keep your mouth shut.

    The number of pilots from this airline not reporting to duty over the past 48 hours is also interesting. Their emotion is understandable. They knew who was flying this Flight

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    Quote Originally Posted by flyerforfun View Post
    A. The identity of the crew has not been disclosed
    B. There seems to be an issue with the nationality of one crew member
    C. Early evidence from CVR seems to show that the hypothesis of deliberate action must be given some priority
    D. The DFR having not been found, there are no evidence available at this stage to substantiate or eliminate any technical causes
    E. The pieces of information about one crewmember leaving the cockpit and being locked outside has been leaked to the press by an anonymous military source in the U.S. Investigation team didn't spread the word during the press conference yesterday

    In my opinion, guys and girls from the BEA and its german counterpart can now take a few hours of rest. They have done what they could. The case is handed over to French DGSE and German Bundesnachrichtendienst BND and all their MI6, CIA, SVR colleagues... have been reassigned as top priority the profiling of the crew.

    And these services are not known for working under scrutiny of the press. Thus the message has been clearly delivered to Germanwings PR : Keep your mouth shut.

    The number of pilots from this airline not reporting to duty over the past 48 hours is also interesting. Their emotion is understandable. They knew who was flying this Flight
    Very interesting and leads to my assumption this is a deliberate act of pilot suicide

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