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BREAKING: EgyptAir flight from Paris to Cairo has disappeared from radar

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Leftseat86 View Post
    Without access to the cockpit, how would someone in the cabin know exactly when the plane had been handed off the Egyptian ATC and was thus in Egyptian airspace, in the middle of the night, over the middle of the Mediterranean?
    With a handheld GPS as those found in cellphones or tablets. Or map in the IFE.

    --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
    --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Evan View Post
      How close to TOD would this have been?
      Rule of thumb, if there are no ATC restrictions (that tend to make you descend earlier than needed), is altitude times 3/10 + 10 NM.
      370 ==> 111 NM ==> 121 NM

      --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
      --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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      • #18
        Aviation Herald - News, Incidents and Accidents in Aviation

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
          Rule of thumb, if there are no ATC restrictions (that tend to make you descend earlier than needed), is altitude times 3/10 + 10 NM.
          370 ==> 111 NM ==> 121 NM
          So... Roughly 10-15mins before starting descent if it was a standard approach?

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Leftseat86 View Post
            Without access to the cockpit, how would someone in the cabin know exactly when the plane had been handed off the Egyptian ATC and was thus in Egyptian airspace, in the middle of the night, over the middle of the Mediterranean?
            Hm. Assumed that there is a pilot (PNF) in the cabin, who knows that route, then, after a look on his watch, he should be able to say the flight phase: which airspace is ahead, crz, tod, all that based on eta, et cetera... and all that although he doesn't sit in front of the cockpit instruments.

            Btw, FZ 981 is under investigation. Thus, here I also like to wait until something official is on the screen. Departure was deGaulle, so, the BEA sooner or later gives something to read for the jp members (in Europe)?
            The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
            The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
            And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
            This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.

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            • #21
              Leftseat, "in the cabin" was something that you assumed, right?

              Well. I have just found a German source which says: " Von Überlebenden wurde nichts bekannt." [ZDF, heute dot de, 05-19-2016]
              In English: "Officials haven't found yet one survivor."

              Under Investigation. That might be a hope for your assumption, that there could have been a PNF in the cabin who survived it and who is able to write down some details.
              I know that there are PNFs who didn't participate in that flight. So, imho,
              Air France is able to contribute/to help with some details. They also know the route.

              Avoidable? Survivable?

              Gabriel, I wish that we could "meet" (online) on a happier occasion. That should be possible, one brighter day.
              The German long haul is alive, 65 years and still kicking.
              The Gold Member in the 747 club, 50 years since the first LH 747.
              And constantly advanced, 744 and 748 /w upper and lower EICAS.
              This is Lohausen International airport speaking, echo delta delta lima.

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              • #22
                Egyptian authorities claimed to have found debris and life jackets, but investigators said they weren't from a plane and the claims have been retracted...
                US agencies are saying satellite imaging shows no sign of an explosion.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                  Rule of thumb, if there are no ATC restrictions (that tend to make you descend earlier than needed), is altitude times 3/10 + 10 NM.
                  370 ==> 111 NM ==> 121 NM
                  By my reckoning, the crew should have been prepping and briefing the descent at the time comms were lost. Or one of them may have may a last-chance run to the lav...

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                  • #24
                    Or one of them may have may a last-chance run to the lav...
                    Oh no not again!

                    (ASSHAT Speculation ON) I have no idea what Egypt Airs procs are on number of crew in the cockpit - let's assume they require a FA in there so two peeps are required. My thinking here is Mr Terrorist 'rushes' the cockpit door as it opens forcing all into the cockpit - mayhem ensues for a couple of seconds before all are incapacitated. I only suggest this because I hate to think this is another PF murdercide

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                    • #25
                      ACARS?

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                      • #26
                        It's a bit sad to think that I'd be happy (figuratively speaking) if this is a mechanical/technical fault rather than another toilet episode

                        Maybe it's time for the pilots to start wearing nappy's (diapers)

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                          With a handheld GPS as those found in cellphones or tablets. Or map in the IFE.
                          A cellphone wouldn't have any signal out there, handheld GPS is a possibility, or the IFE map. I'm just targeting the assumption that an act was deliberately carried out only when the aircraft was in Egyptian airspace. Even with a cheap GPS or the IFE map it would be kind of a guess at that point, and they had only been in the airspace for a few minutes maybe. The person would have to know where the virtual airspace boundary was for it to be deliberate. Or maybe it was just a good guess, if in fact it was a terrorist act with that intention.

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                          • #28
                            cellphones don't need signals to operate as gps units. my iphone gps using motion-x software, is very accurate without a data connection and only a moderate view of the sky. i'm sure the airspace boundaries are not highly classified.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Leftseat86 View Post
                              A cellphone wouldn't have any signal out there, handheld GPS is a possibility, or the IFE map. I'm just targeting the assumption that an act was deliberately carried out only when the aircraft was in Egyptian airspace. Even with a cheap GPS or the IFE map it would be kind of a guess at that point, and they had only been in the airspace for a few minutes maybe. The person would have to know where the virtual airspace boundary was for it to be deliberate. Or maybe it was just a good guess, if in fact it was a terrorist act with that intention.
                              GPS is GPS, in a celphone or in a Garmin device. It doesn't relies, needs or uses celphone signal.
                              GPS, cheap or expensive one, is very precise. Maybe it cannot tell in what lane of the highway you are on, but the error is just some dozens of feet, hundreds in the worst case. The plane was 7 miles into Egyptian airspace. 7 miles +/- 300 feet would not make a difference.
                              There are apps for pilots available for free that uses the GPS of the cellphone and the database that app downloads aviation maps (and is kept in your cellphone, so you don't need cell or data connection, it is stand alone).
                              If you have an airspace map (that you can download from the internet), the only info that you need from the IFE to know if you are in Egyptian airspace is the distance to Cairo.

                              Finally, I don't believe that there would be any "effect" or political advantage by destroy a plane a little bit on either side of an airspace boundary in the middle of the see. What's the difference?
                              It was an Egyptian plane. It came from France. That's all what a terrorist would need.

                              --- Judge what is said by the merits of what is said, not by the credentials of who said it. ---
                              --- Defend what you say with arguments, not by imposing your credentials ---

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Gabriel View Post
                                GPS is GPS, in a celphone or in a Garmin device. It doesn't relies, needs or uses celphone signal.
                                GPS, cheap or expensive one, is very precise. Maybe it cannot tell in what lane of the highway you are on, but the error is just some dozens of feet, hundreds in the worst case. The plane was 7 miles into Egyptian airspace. 7 miles +/- 300 feet would not make a difference.
                                There are apps for pilots available for free that uses the GPS of the cellphone and the database that app downloads aviation maps (and is kept in your cellphone, so you don't need cell or data connection, it is stand alone).
                                If you have an airspace map (that you can download from the internet), the only info that you need from the IFE to know if you are in Egyptian airspace is the distance to Cairo.

                                Finally, I don't believe that there would be any "effect" or political advantage by destroy a plane a little bit on either side of an airspace boundary in the middle of the see. What's the difference?
                                It was an Egyptian plane. It came from France. That's all what a terrorist would need.
                                Which is why I think the idea that someone "waited" till that moment so as to have some special impact of the plane being in Egyptian airspace is moot and probably completely irrelevant. If you're going through all the trouble to bomb or bring down an airliner for political reasons, the airspace you do it in isn't of much concern if any. The the destination, departure point and airline all have more to do with that. Also, thus far, no claims of responsibility by any terrorist groups have been made, as far as we know, right?

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