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Thread: BREAKING: EgyptAir flight from Paris to Cairo has disappeared from radar

  1. #41
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    I suspect these might be reported (paraphrased) interpretations of the actual ACARS messages. If they are, I'm guessing Flight Controls Unit 2 Fault means ELAC 2 FAULT and Secondary Flight Controls 3 Fault means SEC 3 FAULT.

    Both ELAC2 and SEC 3 are on the DC2 BUS.

    The loss of both these FCC's alone would not degrade control from NORMAL law.

    If accurate, the scenario looks like a propagation of fire in the avionics bay, possibly initiated in the lav above...
    That looks like too few and benign faults to bring a plane down. And 3 minutes looks like a too short time from the first smoke event to the last fault report. Unless the next thing that failed was the ACARS...

    EDIT:
    Now these windows messages are worrisome...

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  2. #42
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    That looks like too few and benign faults to bring a plane down. And 3 minutes looks like a too short time from the first smoke event to the last fault report. Unless the next thing that failed was the ACARS...

    EDIT:
    Now these windows messages are worrisome...
    I feel pretty certain these message were just the tip of the iceberg. I'm not sure what those window sensors do but I imagine they sense excessive shock from a fracture. These could also be due to a failed breaker or circuit. The window heat, avionics vent, lav vent and FCU 2 CB's are on the bulkhead panels being the F/O. As is SATCOM...

  3. #43
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    Now these windows messages are worrisome...
    That might be a lark. Consider this... if you lose the #2 DC bus (perhaps due to arcing or electrical fire), you lose the right-side window anti ice (left side is on the #1 Bus), FCU 2 and SEC 2 + 3. I don't know about the right-side window sensors but it stand to reason that they would also be on the #2 DC bus. You might also expect smoke detection in the forward lav and avionics bay.

    If smoke were present, you would expect the pilot to initiate an emergency descent and turn off the airway. If the fire propagated (as in Swissair Flt 111) you could expect the crew to eventually lose flight control.

    Another thing to ponder: When avionics smoke is detected, the SMOKE light comes on on the EMER ELEC PWR panel on the overhead. This is actually a button to take GEN 1 offline and set the emergency electrical configuraion. In EMER ELEC CONFIGURATION, you lose (among a lot of other things) SEC 2 + 3, FCU 2, window anti-ice and SATCOM. Although this seems like less of a fit than a #2 DC bus fault.

    The lack of claims of responsibility by any terror group and these ACARS messages are making me skeptical of a bomb or attack theory. This may turn out to be something quite different.

  4. #44
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    If the leaked ACARS messages are from the very beginning of the main problem I think there was a very strong fire / highly heated airflow in front of the right pilot's seat and those ACARS messages in fact indicate window overheating that cannot be controlled (e.g. cooled) by the window heating computers. The smoke of this disaster was sensed after a minute by front lavatory smoke detector and seconds later by sensors in the avionics compartment. Right now I cannot think of airplane's equipment in that area that can produce such fire/heating/dissipated energy for the given time frame even if supported by 100% oxygen from the masks.

  5. #45
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    Possible oil slick detected by ESA satellite

    AirDisaster.com Forum Member 2004-2008

    Quote Originally Posted by orangehuggy View Post
    the most dangerous part of a flight is not the take off or landing anymore, its when a flight crew member goes to the toilet

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    UPDATED from AV Herald:

    00:26Z 3044 ANTI ICE R WINDOW
    00:26Z 561200 R SLIDING WINDOW SENSOR
    00:26Z 2600 SMOKE LAVATORY SMOKE
    00:27Z 2600 AVIONICS SMOKE
    00:28Z 561100 R FIXED WINDOW SENSOR
    00:29Z 2200 AUTO FLT FCU 2 FAULT
    00:29Z 2700 F/CTL SEC 3 FAULT

    I guessed wrong about the Flight Controls Unit 2 Fault - it is AUTO FLT FCU 2 FAULT. That is a single channel fault and is fault passive, so it has no cockpit action and no effect on the autoflight.

    Right side window heat failure and sensor alerts? Loss of the windows? Electrical faults?
    Is this lavatory the one located above the avionics compartment?
    00:26Z 2600 SMOKE LAVATORY SMOKE
    00:27Z 2600 AVIONICS SMOKE
    A Former Airdisaster.Com Forum (senior member)....

  7. #47
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Embarassingly bad reporting by the New York TImes:

    At 2:26 a.m., a message indicated that the right cockpit window had been opened.

    The last message had to do with the spoiler elevator controller, which essentially controls the flaps responsible for pitch and roll control. The computer controlling these failed as well.
    At 2:26 a.m., a message indicated that both the right fixed cockpit window and the right sliding cockpit window had a sensor fault.

    The last message had to do with the spoiler elevator computer, one of three fully redundant computers that control some of the flight surfaces responsible for roll control and provides a back-up for pitch. One of these computers failed as well.

    Fixed.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Embarassingly bad reporting by the New York TImes:



    At 2:26 a.m., a message indicated that both the right fixed cockpit window and the right sliding cockpit window had a sensor fault.

    The last message had to do with the spoiler elevator computer, one of three fully redundant computers that control some of the flight surfaces responsible for roll control and provides a back-up for pitch. One of these computers failed as well.

    Fixed.
    Oh my...
    AirDisaster.com Forum Member 2004-2008

    Quote Originally Posted by orangehuggy View Post
    the most dangerous part of a flight is not the take off or landing anymore, its when a flight crew member goes to the toilet

  9. #49
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    In case you haven't seen this yet

    AirDisaster.com Forum Member 2004-2008

    Quote Originally Posted by orangehuggy View Post
    the most dangerous part of a flight is not the take off or landing anymore, its when a flight crew member goes to the toilet

  10. #50
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    Has the cargo manifest been released?

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Highkeas View Post
    Has the cargo manifest been released?
    Unconfirmed but it would seem no other cargo other than pax luggage.
    AirDisaster.com Forum Member 2004-2008

    Quote Originally Posted by orangehuggy View Post
    the most dangerous part of a flight is not the take off or landing anymore, its when a flight crew member goes to the toilet

  12. #52
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    First photos coming in


    AirDisaster.com Forum Member 2004-2008

    Quote Originally Posted by orangehuggy View Post
    the most dangerous part of a flight is not the take off or landing anymore, its when a flight crew member goes to the toilet

  13. #53
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Bond View Post
    In case you haven't seen this yet
    AHA! The WINDOW SENSOR faults are coming from the WHC (Window Heating Computer). There are two independent WHC's and the one controlling the R hand side (WHC 2) is on the DC2 bus, along with FCU 2 and SEC 2 + 3.

    This is a failure of the window heat sensors. It has nothing to do with OPENING THE WINDOW!

    I'm almost completely convinced now that the R ANTI ICE and R WINDOW SENSOR faults are due a fault (or partial fault) of the DC2 bus and have nothing to do with the windows themselves.

    An avionics electrical fire would explain that. Every fault on the ACARS list involves the DC 2 bus.

  14. #54
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    AirDisaster.com Forum Member 2004-2008

    Quote Originally Posted by orangehuggy View Post
    the most dangerous part of a flight is not the take off or landing anymore, its when a flight crew member goes to the toilet

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    This may or of course may not be relevant, but I was recently reading the NTSB report on ValuJet 592 and it contains a lot of discussion about ways of dealing with smoke in the cabin and cockpit. One of the points they make is that Douglas had done studies on the DC-9 (and yes I know the a/c in this accident was not a DC-9) and found opening a cockpit window (after depressurizing the aircraft) to be an effective way of clearing smoke in the cockpit (http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/A...ts/AAR9706.pdf, page 50 and others).
    Be alert! America needs more lerts.

    Eric Law

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    Quote Originally Posted by elaw View Post
    This may or of course may not be relevant, but I was recently reading the NTSB report on ValuJet 592 and it contains a lot of discussion about ways of dealing with smoke in the cabin and cockpit. One of the points they make is that Douglas had done studies on the DC-9 (and yes I know the a/c in this accident was not a DC-9) and found opening a cockpit window (after depressurizing the aircraft) to be an effective way of clearing smoke in the cockpit (http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/A...ts/AAR9706.pdf, page 50 and others).
    Perhaps someone can match the altitude of the plane with the acars message to add weight to the theory.
    Is the avionics bay accessible from the fwd lav? (By lifting of floor panels or something)

  17. #57
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    Reports are saying the smoke alarms went off for about 3 minutes before the point of impact (or point of possible break up of the structure, just throwing that in there to cover every possibility). In the forward cabin toilet as has been mentioned I think.

    Now that doesn't really necessarily mean the fire lasted 3 minutes but rather could have started much earlier and spread until it was eventually detected by that toilet sensor. To the point it was pretty much too late to do anything about at least in a sense that the plane could divert to Crete or another Greek island, or Turkey before it was rendered inoperable to fly. Or could the fire really have only lasted 3 minutes and done so much damage in such little time? Because obviously once it was detected action was taken to descend it seems.

    I would think they would have smoke detectors/sensors in reasonable places that a fire commonly occurs, but just how many of them are there and exactly where are they on the A320. The lavatory is one of the common places for a fire so it makes sense there would be one there.

    I am very tired, so I hope I make sense. And I am glad this seems to not be terrorism for once.

  18. #58
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KGEG View Post
    I would think they would have smoke detectors/sensors in reasonable places that a fire commonly occurs, but just how many of them are there and exactly where are they on the A320.
    Lavs, avionics bay and cargo compartments. The main cabin and cockpit are covered by the human smoke detectors.

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    Oz media now citing an ATSB report from 2009 that showed concerns of the window sensor detector unit overheating in 12 Airbuses.

    If the DC2 BUS did die because of this would all radios be disabled? I'm just thinking that if I were PNF I'd be getting a message out about smoke in the plane?

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    The main cabin and cockpit are covered by the human smoke detectors.
    The problem with these detectors is that even when they do 'go off', ACARS isn't informed and ground/investigators don't know about it

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